Jesus vs Yeshua

[David Huston]

Dear brethren, I recently became involved in a discussion about the name of Jesus with a women who posted a question on the Glorious Church website. Her name is Teuila Holding. Teuila maintains that we must use the name Yeshua and not Jesus. Below is the discussion beginning with the question she posted on the website and my response. The discussion has continued from there via email. I need your help in this because I feel as though I’ve used about everything in my arsenal. What am I missing here that might persuade her of her error?

Note: My comments begin with DH and her’s with Teuila.

　

Teuila’s original question: Where do you find in Scripture to support your theory that people were baptized in the name according to the language they speak, or that His name was changed based on what language you speak?

Answer on website: The very fact that the New Testament was written in Greek and the name Jesus written as Iesous rather that Yeshua is a good place to start. Also, the Bible recognizes that the peoples of the earth speak different languages according to God's own purpose (Genesis 11). We reject the idea that the Lord's name is being changed when it is transliterated from one language to another. It doesn't matter if a person is baptized in the name of Jesus, Yeshua, Yesha, Jesu, or Iesous. These are simply Anglicized versions of the letters which spell God’s name in various languages.

Notification to Teuila: Thank you for posting a question or comment on the Glorious Church website. We take all postings very seriously and do our best to provide solid and responsible answers. We have recently posted our response to your posting. Please keep in mind that we sometimes change the title to make the nature of the question clearer to others visiting the site. Thank you for participating and please continue to visit.

Teuila: Thank you. But with all due respect, you didn't give me scripture besides stating that there were different languages spoken, which we all know to be true. The response is telling me that man is the one who changed the name of God from language to language however where do we find in scripture that His name changed when speaking to someone in a different language, especially Baptism?

DH: The name did not change. If you spell Yeshua in Hebrew letters, no one in Greece will be able to say it (unless they speak Hebrew). So when you transliterate the Hebrew letters into Greek, it comes out Iesous (except it would be in Greek letters). This is not changing the name, it is only changing the language in which the name is said. It still means Yahweh is Salvation. When people read the New Testament letters in their original languages, they would have read the Lord’s name as Iesous. When it was translated into English, it became Jesus. When I was baptized, the name Jesus was called over me. I have baptized hundreds of people and have always called the name Jesus. You seem to be suggesting that we are not saved because we didn’t say Yeshua. If that is what you are saying, please explain why God had the NT written in Greek and why He didn’t make clear that the name must be uttered in the original Hebrew. I am interested in this, so I honestly want to know your explanation.

Teuila: Who came up with the name Iesous?You would like to know why he didn’t specify that His name had to be uttered in the original Hebrew but I’d like to know where he said that it was pronounced diff according to the language you spoke? My name is Polynesian, you don’t have to be or speak the Polynesian language to say my name. My husband speaks Spanish, my name wouldn’t change if he was introducing me to someone who speaks Spanish. In High School I had foreign exchange students who came down from Japan, one of their names were Jin Soo, didn’t have to speak their language to be able to call him by his name.

And I’m quite confused when you say the name did not change yet Yeshua, Iesous and Jesus are all spelled 3 different ways and pronounced differently so how is that a direct transliteration or the same? How would you know how to pronounce Yeshua if you don’t speak Hebrew ( unless you do) those are not Hebrew letters so then wouldn’t Yeshua be the direct transliteration from Hebrew to English? I can’t read Hebrew but I can read/say Yeshua just fine.

DH: The name Iesous in Greek letters is the name as it appears throughout the New Testament. So I guess you could say that the New Testament writers came up with it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. If we use your logic, then we should always use the Greek name Iesous and never use the Hebrew name Yeshua. But I have answered enough questions for a while. My question to you is, where does this leave all of us who were baptized in the name of JESUS?

Teuila: You can’t start from Jesus and try to figure out how that name came about. You have to start from the beginning in the old Testament with Yahweh (which they changed that too) then you will see that Yahweh was a lot of things to them but the greatest thing he could become for us was our salvation. Yahweh-Yasha. Yeshua. It’s the fulfillment of scripture of Yahweh coming himself to save his people when you say Yeshua. There’s no salvation in any other name. Singular. He wasn’t called anything other than Yeshua bc then that would break scripture. In Isaiah 56 he said that he’d give an everlasting name (singular) that would not be cut off. When names were changed in scripture it was obvious, for instance in Revelation 9 it specifically states that the name was diff in the Hebrew and Greek. We don’t find anywhere that his name was called something else from one language to the next.

DH: You did not answer my question. You also did not explain why the New Testament uses Iesous instead of Yeshua. Please respond to these issues. Thanks.

Teuila: The New Testament was written during a period called Hellenism where King Alexander the Great came in and was changing everything to Greek, names and all. Also weren’t there some names used both in the Old and New Testament? Why didn’t those names change then too? Can you please answer then where Iesous was derived from?

DH: The New Testament was written in the first century AD. Alexander the Great lived in the 4th century BC, 400 years before the New Testament era. Your explanation is historically impossible. The name Joshua (Yehoshua) of the Old Testament appears as Jesus in the KJB. The Old Testament name Elijah (Eliyahu) appears as Elias in the New. There are other examples. These names were not changed or translated; they were transliterated. This is the practice of exchanging the letter equivalents of the two languages (in this case Hebrew and Greek). That’s where Iesous came from. It is a transliteration from Hebrew letters to the equivalent Greek letters. It is the same name. You still haven’t said where your ideas leave me and all the others who have been baptized in the name of JESUS. Do we need to be re-baptized in the name of Yeshua to be saved?

Teuila: I understand what transliteration means and it would be to get the same sound so we would be pronouncing it the same way in our own language. What name was Iesous derived from? Yeshua correct?

Yes, I believe you have to be re baptized. The letter J wasn’t even created until the 16th century and the name Jesus wasn’t even used in the Bible until 200+ years ago. In the KJV 1611 Bible the scripture recorded his name as Iesus, 1617 it was Lefus and in 1722 it was Jefus Chrift.. So that’s the English language, so then that means that since the name Jesus wasn’t used in the English bible all those years, no one up until that point has a chance to make it to heaven bc they weren’t baptized in the name Jesus?

DH: You are incorrect about the name Jesus in the King James Bible. The letter J existed in 1611, it’s just that it was formed differently in formal type setting. Same with the letter S. The people of England knew the name Jesus in 1611 just as they do today. You seem to be suggesting that according to my beliefs, no one could have been saved in 1611 because they could not know the name Jesus. If I need to be baptized again to be saved, how should that baptism be done, what should be said? I am very serious about asking this because if I have it wrong, I want to get it right. I don’t really care about winning arguments, I just want to be saved. So what do I need to do?

Teuila: Well I can’t say whether or not they knew the name Jesus or not in 1611 but it wasn’t recorded in scripture until after 1722. I don’t find anywhere in the scripture where Yeshua’s name changes from on language to the next. Your name doesn’t change if you go to another country where they speak another language. Who are we to change God’s name? Salvation is in The name of Yeshua. Baptism in the name of Yeshua.

DH: It is not true that the name Jesus did not appear in the King James Bible until 1722. It was there in 1611, it’s just that some of the letters were formed differently from what we recognize today. It is also not true that your name would not change if you went to a foreign country. If you a man named Joseph went to Mexico, he would be called Jose. If a woman named Ruth went to Israel, she would be called Rut (with a long u sound). If a man named Michael went to Russia, he would be called Mikhail. When the writers of the New Testament wrote the Lord’s name, they wrote Iesous. They never wrote Yeshua. It almost seems as though you do not consider the New Testament to be part of the holy Word of God. Is that true?

Teuila: Well in my research the name Jesus did not appear until after 1722. I would say that if you were born in Mexico, you’re more likely to be named Jose not Joseph. That doesn’t mean that’s what they’re going to call you. That may be more common in their language but they’re not going to change your namer you go there, they have no right to. Where would your identity be in your name changed everywhere you went? And of course I consider the NT as part of the holy Word. Just bc it was never written doesn’t mean that wasn’t his name. It was man who changed the name of God, something we had no right to do.

DH: You seem to be unwilling to deal with the fact that the entire New Testament identifies the Lord’s name as Iesous (in Greek letters). It never calls Him Yeshua (using either Greek or Hebrew letters). So you can say all you want that everyone must call Him Yeshua, regardless of their language, but your whole theory falls apart as soon as you read Matthew 1:1.

Teuila: I’m sorry, I would’ve responded sooner but for some reason your email went straight to my junk folder. I’m not quite sure how it all falls apart after reading Matthew 1:1.

In Revelation 22:2 shows us that Paul (Saul) was speaking in the Hebrew tongue. Not for their benefit bc they knew what language they were speaking but for ours. They spoke, taught and preached the name Yeshua so why aren’t we doing what the apostles did? John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name ((singular, one name)) of the only begotten Son of God.. Couldn’t have been Jesus bc that name never existed.

DH: Are you American or Polynesian? Or something else?

Teuila: My mom is Puerto Rican, my dad was mainly Polynesian and Italian. My husband’s mom is Puerto Rican and black and his dad is Irish and Native American.

DH: Do you live in the US and speak English as your primary language?

Teuila: Yes, of course.

DH: So you are an English speaking American who has a Polynesian name. Is that right?

Teuila: Yes. Which then you will try to justify that even tho He was a Jew who spoke Hebrew had a Greek name, and I would justify it saying that just bc I’m not Hebrew nor speak Hebrew doesn’t mean I cant say his name in Hebrew. Just like you don’t have to be or speak Polynesian to say my name. But again you haven’t answered any of my questions nor do I find in scripture where his name was pronounced differently from one language to the next. As we know names are very significant and have meaning and purpose throughout the whole bible. Esau means Red bc he came out that way, Jacob heel-holder, supplanter. Sarah to Sarai, Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel and many more yet we don’t find that about Yeshua’s name. So the fact that you’re trying to downplay the significance of a name, especially when it comes to our Saviour is not so convincing. Our God is very specific, the Arc, The Tabernacle, so again hard to see where His name would just be called anything and change from one language to the next.

[Josphat Wachira]

Thanks for the discussion above, but I believe if this issue is not done in a prayful way, it will lead many to perish.

We from the third world take the bible the way it is and do take it as the inspired word of God. If any other person will try to show us that we are wrong when we follow the Holy Book, it is very unfortunate.

Through this NAME JESUS, we have seen many healed and demons obeying, how comes then that we have been wrong all along?

Take heed that no made shall lead you astray.

Josphat Wachira

e-mail: [e-mail]

[Stan Hallett]

I too took a serious, earnest look at this some years ago. I concur with virtually everyone's responses here. The bottom line for me that I believe God brought to me as I looked into this, was the fact that I am well into my 60's having sat on Oneness, Apostolic, Pentecostal pew since childhood.  In that time I have personally seen hundreds of people repent, be baptized in Jesus' name and be filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. I have witnessed many miracles of healing, and two occasions have seen someone raised from the dead in the Name of Jesus!

My next realization is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the One God, Jesus Name, Apostolic, Pentecostal people are indeed his Bride, and the Church.  Surely if it were possible that we would make so grave an error, God would reveal it to His people.  The truth is that He has given us revelation and truth.

Lastly, In my experience I have found that the people that perpetuate this doctrine also lack in other areas of truth, and even salvation. They are often law keepers and sabbath keepers, trying to return to an old and dead covenant.

[Stan Hallett]

J.R.,

In my view the Trinitarian is justified in their doctrine when it comes to healing. Amazingly enough they know how to pray in Jesus' name when it comes to healing.  Most just get confused when it come to baptism.

The only diligence we owe to her, and any other soul, is the tell them the truth, show them in the Word as best we can, and keep them in our prayers. I am sure this is what David is trying his best to do. It is God that draws and God who reveals Himself to whosoever He will. 

We can argue and debate with many people until Jesus comes, but they often will never change their opinion. I am not saying this woman is in that position, nor that will she not see it. . . time will tell. There is a point where one needs to knock the dust of his sandals and move on to someone God will lead us to that can receive the truth.

I quit debating years ago.  We can always win the debate, but most often lose the soul.  What was the good? I show people truth that have desire to understand, but I will not argue.

I expect that this is not the only area of difference with Teuila, but just the tip of the ice burg.  Just a guess. If you ask yourself the question of how the question originated in a first place you may have a clue of where she is coming from, and the ongoing battle that may ensue.  I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised to the contrary.

[Stan Hallett]

David, actually, if this is the same Teuila, you may already have a good foundation to build on.  I'm not sure where she's coming from.  Perhaps she just digging for truth.  I'm good with that!

Here a profile I just found on Etsy.  Same person?

Teuila Holding 's Profile

About

I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. I believe that there is One God (Deut. 6:4) and in order to make it to heaven you have to be born of the water and spirit (john 3:5). Repent, Baptized in Jesus name (born of water),and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, evidence of speaking with other tongues (born of spirit) because its a promise to all of us (Acts 2:38). I have an amazing husband and daughter who are my world. I love learning new things and learning from others. If it helps me save money I'm all about it! God Bless =]

• Female
• Born on June 23
• Joined March 15, 2011

[Stan Hallett]

If we are talking about the name, and the name only, should we have a problem with it?  If in fact Yeshua being Jesus in Hebrew, or Jesus pronounced "Heyzeus" which is Jesus in Spanish is used, should we have any problem with that?  I don't think so.

Due to living in San Diego for 23 years, I have seen Hispanic Apostolic Pentecostals baptized it the name of Jesus pronounced "Heyzeus". This is good. However I see no reason for English speaking people to change it, which is what she is stating should happen.

God is not Jewish, Spanish or American, and is no respecter of persons.

It really comes down to just a spoken language issue which David is trying to convince her of. I'm not sure how to do that. I think he's done a better job than I could have done already.

If a Hispanic person reads "Jesus" he will say "Heyzeus".  Is then because the sound of the pronounced name different that it will have no effect?  Of course not.

[David Huston]

Thanks J.R. and Stan for your comments. I forwarded J.R.s remarks to Teuila by email but I haven't heard anything from her yet. Stan, I think the profile you found must be her. After all, how many apostolic Teuila Holdings could there be? I find it interesting that she used the name Jesus in her profile, which makes me think that she may not be as locked into her position on Yeshua as she seems. We'll see.

[David Huston]

Here is Teuila's response to J.R.'s comments...

 

Thank you! As I read I will ask the questions that came in to my head. However, for the record, I saw him brining up people of he Sacred Name. I am familiar with the name but am not associated with them and am not just doing this for argument sake as you've stated before. If I'm wrong then I want to know what to do right... 

 

1.  I understand that they did the best they could at that time to transliterate his Name but even in today's time and advance language we have, they transliterated his name from Hebrew to Greek to Latin. So when we go back to the root name in Hebrew and transliterate that to English we get Yeshua (Yehoshua for more emphasis or to help in pronouncing it). You may have a hard time pronouncing their name bc you're not from their country but it's like saying someone with a lisp can't pronounce "'s" correctly so they're wrong no matter what. A personal example, some people, mainly close family pronounce my name tay-wela and friends will say twee-la. Slightly emphasized two diff ways, still my name. However that's not the case with Yeshua to Iesous to Jesus.

2. Like I said previously, just because they don't have a sh sound does not mean they can't say it or that their name changes all together. It's like saying if your name was Spanish and you live in America well now we will call you how you say it in English. On many occasions my hubby and I have Spanish friends whose names are Spanish, Juan, Jorge, Miguel. It does not mean I can't say it nor does it give me to right to say well we have English names for those so I'm not calling you Juan your name is John. Just like you'd more likely be named Marcos in a Spanish speaking culture than Mark and vis versa.

 

3. I see very limited ways to pronounce YHWH therefore leaving very little room to be able change Gods name. 

 

4. I have only seen one "argument" against the spelling of Yahshua and how it's incorrect but whether your emphasis lies in saying Yeshua or Yehoshua is just a way to help you pronounce the name. We don't speak Hebrew so when they transliterated it to English we get Yeshua, not Jesus. If you go back throughout the English Bible translations you will find in the 1611 English version Iesus, which then changed to Lefus, Jefus Chrift and eventually Jesus after 1722. These were Bibles used all around the world for hundreds of years so if you get baptized in Jesus name you'd have to take on all the other names that were used in lieu of his name as well.

5. Well clearly there were more people in the world who have the same name, it's seen clearly throughout scripture. I'm not disagreeing if referring to baptism to say Yeshua Messiah.

 

6. The scripture I've said before, Acts 22:2 where he spoke to them in Hebrew, they would've heard Yeshua. The fact that it tells us he was speaking Hebrew was not for their benefit as they knew the language being spoken but for our benefit. They didn't know anything else but Yeshua. 

 

And if you're saying that more people would recognize the name of Jesus rather than Yeshua if you were to speak at a High School then I'd agree with you but that doesn't mean that it's right. Col 2:8.. after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after the Messiah. What good is it to teach someone how to build a house if your just going to tell them how to do it the wrong way? I didn't realize being"safe" was the better route, I'm pretty sure the apostles weren't thinking they should've just taken the safer route when they were being beaten, stoned and in prison. 2 Tim 2:24-25

 

Thank you, hope to hear from you soon! 

[Stan Hallett]

J.R.  I thought that is what you were thinking.  Not a problem brother.

Stan

J.R. Riggs said:

Ok, Dave,I hope is all well with you guys.

Stan, I apologize for any confrontational statements I may have made.  I was hurrying with my correspondence and overlooked that David was using our information for communicating with her via email.  I thought she was viewing your comments and wanted to assure her that we were not some of those Churchy Apostolics who strain at gnats and swallow camels.  However, now I understand that you were in the know and would not have made those statements within her earshot.  I should have reread David's original post.   God Bless.

[Mike Gibson]

Good topic! I began searching this out decades ago. I began baptizing in the name of Yahshua in 1983. I used this name almost always up until 2002. Then I began to lean to Yeshuah. Around that time I began to understand some languages do not have the same sounds as has been mentioned here. That made a difference for me.

Another problem I have ran into is also as has been stated it seems our knowledge is always evolving in the matter. Just when you think you have the Hebrew name down pat a new revelation comes forth with another variation.

I remember being one of several on Stan Hallets message board that used the Hebrew name. Actually what attracted me to this doctrine was the same thing that attracted me to Apostolic baptism in the first place. Acts 4:12 There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. It was hearing a young man preach this on the street one night when I was in the Jesus Movement that I needed to be rebaptized. Because there was no other name. So in a real sense the hunger and thirst for this truth is rooted in the Apostolic movement.

I still use Yeshuah mostly in my prayer time. I have seen many mock our attempts to find and exalt the "original" sacred name and so rather than hear some of them speak evil of it I converse with them using Jesus. Having said that I must explain that I never have criticized the name of Jesus. To me it has always been the most beautiful name in the English language. I no longer feel driven to baptize exclusively in the Hebrew name but I do feel it is an important issue to know the original name.

For all we know if we don't make it at least a "knowledge issue" the Hebrew could some day again be lost to us. So altho I do not take it as a salvation issue I do feel its a great truth to know and certainly more important than some of the things I hear among Apostolic circles.

[Mike Gibson]

Stan said:

Lastly, In my experience I have found that the people that perpetuate this doctrine also lack in other areas of truth, and even salvation. They are often law keepers and sabbath keepers, trying to return to an old and dead covenant.

Me:

I agree fully. Many have become law keepers and some even reject the Messiah and go into Judaism. BUT I have also seen on the other hand many of these that have searched out the sacred name get baptized into it. Im sure you would agree better to be baptized into Yeshuah than into the titles. Many of them come to see MORE truth instead of less in certain areas. Such as the post tribulation rapture, soul sleep and the annihilation of the wicked. So its a mixed bag.

[David Huston]

Brethren, I have just forwarded J.R.'s recent comments to Teuila. I'll post her response.

I want to mention that I believe the fact that it was God Himself who inspired the writing of the New Testament to be in Greek is a rather significant argument against insisting exclusively on Yeshua. I tried to make the point to Teuila that the orginal texts of the New Testament never call the Lord Yeshua, only Iesous (or Iesus). It was not a matter of the Greeks transliterating Yeshua the best they could into Greek. If we believe the New Testament is the infallible Word of God (which we all assuredly do), then we must also believe that the name Iesous was God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). To me, this settles the matter that a name can move from one language to another and still be the same name. As you pointed out J.R., the more important issue is whether or not we know the One who bears this inestimable name!

 

 

[Mike Gibson]

I believe Iesous was the transliteration using sounds that Greeks had in their language. Iesous was the transliteration of Yehoshua as far back as the Septuagint (Greek) version of the OT. That is the very reason I cooled a bit on the sacred name doctrine. There are languages that simply don't have the sounds that Biblical Hebrew had. It is no conspiracy that people transliterate the name into their language.

Now we do have the sounds to make "Yeshua" in English but many don't. The reason we wind up with Jesus is because we are bringing it over from the Greek not the Hebrew. I have no certain belief that the scriptures were inspired in Greek only. We have copies in Greek older than in other tongues but I do not believe the apostles wrote in Greek to other Hebrew speaking people.

Having said that Im sure the Greek scriptures are sufficient especially since they are very ancient and the closest we have to an original Hebrew New Testament is the Peshitta Aramaic. For whatever reason we cannot provide a first century Hebrew manuscript showing us exactly how to write or pronounce the name.

I speak as one who finds nothing wrong with using the name as it is in other languages. I know who I mean and certainly YHWH knows. Yet at the same time I believe there were "original" names and why would we not want to know and use them?