What Is Your Stance On Wine For The Lord's Supper

[Phillip W. Gordon]

 

 

  Does the Glorious Church have a particular stance on wine for the Lord's Supper or do you only use grape juice?

[Mike R. Prevost]

Here's Brandon's paper in PDF.  See attached.

[Donnie Gillum]

Came through readable this time.  Thanks, Bro. Prevost!

[Phillip W. Gordon]

 

 

  Thank you Brother Brandon for your insiteful post.  I do believe that wine is correct for the Lord's Supper along with unleavened bread.  We break the bread from a common piece and we drink from the common cup. 

Abiding

Phillip

[Nathan Miller]

Hi all,  I thought I'd share this since it kind of ties in with these posts.  My wife and I just hosted our first Passover seder last weekend.   (This is in a newly planted church in Latvia.)  It was during our regular home group meeting time and we had a great time.  Many of the members (we have about 10-12 total, plus kids) knew very little about the context surrounding the Lord's supper.  We of course used unleavened bread and also wine (diluted), breaking from common pieces and drinking from a common cup (four times for the passover).  We will definitely be doing it again next year, and probably incorporating it into all our home groups.  There are so many things to learn from it, and many scriptures come to life.

Also, I think the scriptures do side with using wine over grape juice, although I don't think using grape juice is wrong, in the case of former alcohol abuse, for example--or out of ignorance.  I think that if someone I knew actually did have a problem with taking it because of previous alcohol abuse, then they should follow their conscience and abstain, and that this should always be clear and up front.  A grape-juice substitute would also be appropriate, I think, in the event that a significant issue is raised, for whatever the reason.  Someone who really thinks it's wrong, shouldn't be doing it.  We definitely don't want to be in the business of encouraging people to go against their conscience.  As an example, my wife is on a completely wheat-free diet for specific health reasons.  Hence she does not actually partake of the bread.  It is her decision.  I would encourage her to go ahead and partake, due to the small amount, but in the end it is up to her, and I won't judge her either way on it.

Interesting topic, I hope the discussion continues.

[Phillip W. Gordon]

Nathan Miller said:

Hi all,  I thought I'd share this since it kind of ties in with these posts.  My wife and I just hosted our first Passover seder last weekend.   (This is in a newly planted church in Latvia.)  It was during our regular home group meeting time and we had a great time.  Many of the members (we have about 10-12 total, plus kids) knew very little about the context surrounding the Lord's supper.  We of course used unleavened bread and also wine (diluted), breaking from common pieces and drinking from a common cup (four times for the passover).  We will definitely be doing it again next year, and probably incorporating it into all our home groups.  There are so many things to learn from it, and many scriptures come to life.

Also, I think the scriptures do side with using wine over grape juice, although I don't think using grape juice is wrong, in the case of former alcohol abuse, for example--or out of ignorance.  I think that if someone I knew actually did have a problem with taking it because of previous alcohol abuse, then they should follow their conscience and abstain, and that this should always be clear and up front.  A grape-juice substitute would also be appropriate, I think, in the event that a significant issue is raised, for whatever the reason.  Someone who really thinks it's wrong, shouldn't be doing it.  We definitely don't want to be in the business of encouraging people to go against their conscience.  As an example, my wife is on a completely wheat-free diet for specific health reasons.  Hence she does not actually partake of the bread.  It is her decision.  I would encourage her to go ahead and partake, due to the small amount, but in the end it is up to her, and I won't judge her either way on it.

Interesting topic, I hope the discussion continues.

Thank you for your post,Brother Nathan.

 

   I have never had nor participated in a Passover Feast, but I have taught what on it for several services before we participate in the Lord's Supper.  Personally, I see no advantage in keeping Passover.  To teach on it is quite necessary as far as I am concerned.

    I started out in a mainline petntecostal denomination that did not use wine for the Lord's supper, but used grape juice.  It wasn't until the moving of God in the se4venties that the Lord  began to "shake me up" about some of the things that I did, and at that time I started correcting things in my walk with  the Lord, to be more scriipturally correct.  It would trouble my spirit if I  did not use wine, knowing what I know now.  Another thing, I do not have "open communion" in churhes that I have pastored.  Only those that believe in the Lord's Supper and want to participate are involved.  If someone did not want to observe it the way that it is taught that is fine.

  Why do you  say a "grape-juice substitute would be appropriate?

   Pardon me for asking, but does your wife feel that one  small piece of unleavened bread would  effect her diet?

   Do you believe that by taking the Lord's Supper that healing can be there for us?

 

   Blessings to you in your ministry.  Our prayers are with you.df

    Phillip

[Nathan Miller]

Hi Phillip,

I've just read your response, so I'll try to answer your questions--a bit late, hehe!  

About Passover, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by keeping passover--we certainly don't keep kosher nor adhere to any of the strict guidelines for keeping a real passover meal as would orthodox Jews.  It's just the main-line items on the Seder plate, the Exodus, a bit of history of the Jewish feasts, etc. because of the significance in the Biblical and historical account, and the connection with the events surrounding Passover itself and the crucifixion of Jesus.  It is something that has also got me thinking quite a bit about the Lord's supper itself.

I'm curious what you mean by "believe in the Lord's Supper".  Do you have particular teachings on it that one needs to accept first, or do you simply mean that one should believe that it's important?  For us, it's a thing that I am beginning to understand more about, but still wanting more.  At present, I try to stress the symbolic side and the importance of recognizing the reality of forgiveness of sins through the blood via baptism and true participation in the body of Christ via the Holy Spirit since several of our members have traditional backgrounds and are used to a more superstitious view on the very mystical and formal "Holy Communion".  Even the churches that I attended as a youth also had a very formal "open communion" as you call it (if I understand you correctly), and there was little teaching on the connection with real life and absolutely none with the context of the Passover, which is probably similar to even most Oneness Pentecostal churches now.

I don't think that grape juice would be wrong to use mainly because I don't believe that the Lord's supper is a mystical or magical event that confers special rights or privileges upon the partaker (although this is admittedly a minority view in Christendom and perhaps among Apostolics as well, I'm not sure.)  For me, it's akin to me not believing that there is a special, exact formula (such as in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, or in the name of Yeshuah, and certainly not just the words of Matt. 28:19, etc.) that is necessary for baptism, or a special way to immerse a believer, or a certain day of the week or month to do it.  However, I fully agree that using wine makes the most sense, and that simple grape juice does an injustice (ok, I realize that word denotes a sense of wrong, but I'm not finding a better word for it here) to the symbolic implications of the wine, and the historic reality of what both the Jewish passover and the Christian Lord's supper have used for centuries.

As far as wheat goes, yes, the smallest amount is noticeable, but incidentally, my wife has recently been partaking of the bread as well (only at communion).  We haven't actually discussed it, but I assume that her reasoning is that partaking with everyone is more important to her than the personal discomfort she might get from eating wheat.  (About healing, I assume you're referring to the fact that she doesn't eat wheat, since I think it's safe to say that we both believe that one can be healed at many different moments and in many different circumstances, which of course would open the possibility of Jesus using the Lord's supper to heal someone.) 

Thanks for your comments and questions and I look forward to reading yours later.

Blessings to you as well,

Nathan

[Mike R. Prevost]

Nathan,  Good post.

I grew up a heathen, and came to the Lord about age 17.  For 20 years or so I was in a Oneness Pentecostal congregation that practiced the Lord's Supper every Sunday.  I haven't been a part of that congregation for many years, and it dissolved (in a manner of speaking) a couple of years ago.   The original pastor taught that the Lord's Supper was the primary, if not the only, place that post-baptismal sins are forgiven.  I held this view for a long time.  For the past 10 years or so, I have abandoned that belief after personal study and understanding of how salvation works (mostly from Romans 1-8, Galatians 3-4, etc).

However, this isn't to say that the Lord's Supper strictly a memorial event with no spiritual import.  Some people think of water baptism this way.  Baptism is a symbolic event that changes your legal standing with God.  It is much like a wedding ceremony: you don't really change in any specific internal or external way, but before the ceremony, your were single and afterward you were married.    Everything changed: roles, responsibilities, relationships, sexuality, tax benefits, and more!  The problem with the Lord's Supper is that it's very hard to nail down exactly what happens.  There is nothing in the scriptures about forgiveness of sins occurring -- except Jesus' statement that his blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins.  But, no writer made any specific statement about what happens when we consume the elements that symbolize body and blood, only that they DO represent the body and blood.  We just speculate from there.  There are no explanatory passages like there is for baptism (Rom 6, Gal 3, Col 2).

But this does not mean that the Lord's Supper is a spiritually impotent ceremony.  I think that it is primarily memorial, but there is SOMETHING spiritual that occurs.  

1 Cor 10:15-21 KJV I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. {16} The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? {17} For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. {18} Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? {19} What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? {20} But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. {21} Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Cor 11:26-31 KJV For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. {27} Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. {28} But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. {29} For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. {30} For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. {31} For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

There is SOME sort of spiritual interaction going on such that Paul did not want that kind of fellowship to occur with demonic spirits.  Also, if bad things happen to you when you do it wrong, then it seems like good things would happen to you if you did it right (although that's admittedly invalid logic -- just an assumption).  But, I was not able to pin it down.  Still can't.

I do think that the most Biblically substantiated frequency is every first day of the week, or whenever you meet together as a group.  The only other frequency that I see any Biblical support for is every Passover (from Jesus' words "as oft as you do this" -- "this" was Passover).  But this is an age old debate going back to Polycarp and beyond.

One thing that I do strongly believe is that the purpose of the Lord's Supper is not to forgive post-baptismal sins.  Forgiveness of sins does not work this way.  Either you're in a state of "forgiven-ness" or you're not (Rom 4).  If you are forgiven, sins are not imputed to you (Rom 4, end of Rom 5).  If you choose to stop living for the Lord (i.e., you backslide), then your sins ARE imputed to you and you are condemned because of them.  So, given this, the idea that the Lord's Supper is for the forgiveness of post-baptismal sins doesn't make sense.  To believe that the Lord's Supper is for the forgiveness of sins is to believe the commonly preached, but false, idea that if you sin, you enter into an unsaved state until you somehow get that sin forgiven (repentance, confession, communion, etc), and then you are back in a saved state again.  Here, you degenerate into a legalistic framework where salvation is based on your behavior.  This is not the way I understand the scriptures.  Salvation is based on faith, covenant, and a Spiritually renewed, Godward heart.  Absent any of these, you're toast.

Nathan, if you haven't read my paper on the Timing of the Lord's Supper, you might find it very interesting.  It's on Page 2 of this discussion along with the Wine in the Bible booklet.  The original purpose of the Timing paper was to prove that the Lord's Supper was instituted in the context of a Passover meal, but I had to do a thorough harmonization of the Gospels in order to really prove it to the satisfaction of my antagonist at the time.  John is very troublesome in this regard.  It was a interesting piece of work though.