Be Ye Perfect

[Mike Gibson]

 

Jesus said in Matthew 5:48:

 

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

 

I believe this is to be the "standard" for every Christian. What do you think?

[Mike Gibson]

Hi Dave,

 

It seems when we get saved God gives us a "robe of righteousness". It is perfectly clean as a result of our sins being forgiven. We are really right with Him. As we go along if we sin there comes stains on that robe. Through confession those stains can be removed and we can be made clean. Also I agree God is more patient with the young convert who has perhaps a small amount of light.

 

To me the worst problem in the Church apart from the lack of foundational teaching is the diminishing of the great commission.

 

Jesus said:

 

28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.  Matt. 28:19-20

 

We really push missions. We (Apostolics) really push baptism. Yet Jesus said that teaching his commandments is a part of that commission! Nowadays teaching commandments and keeping them is very unpopular. Instead we are told to let them just learn to develop a personal relationship with Jesus. Then later on down the road we may visit a discussion about knowing and keeping his commands.

 

Well Im the first one to say we must have a personal relationship with Jesus. Yet after baptism Jesus who we want that relationship with said we are to start learning his commandments. Matter of fact Jesus DIRECTLY connects keeping his commandments with knowing him personally.

 

14:21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.    John 14:21

 

Its no wonder so many dont have a clue when it comes to actually EXPERIENCING Jesus Christ!

 

They have been robbed of the very understanding Jesus gave us about how to love him and how to get MANIFESTATIONS of his person.

 

The present day attitude that teaching on obedience to commandments is "legalism" and teaching of perfection is for "Pharisees" has weakened the Church mightily.

 

 

 

My passion is for the whole counsel of God. The teaching on perfection and holiness are as prominent in scripture as any other teaching. So why is there so little taught on it? Why do even Pastors who are considered to be strong in the word avoid teaching it?

 

 

 

 

[Mike R. Prevost]

 

Mike Gibson said:

It seems when we get saved God gives us a "robe of righteousness". It is perfectly clean as a result of our sins being forgiven. We are really right with Him. As we go along if we sin there comes stains on that robe. Through confession those stains can be removed and we can be made clean. 

 

What happens if you forget to confess one?

 

 

[David Huston]

The person who sees sin as the destructive evil that it is will never "forget" to confess one.

I just finished teaching for 18 weeks on holiness. It is true, however, that some churches have a lot of hoopin' and hollerin' with very little practical teaching. I also agree that keeping the commandments is how we develop a personal relationship with Jesus, not something we add on after this relationship has been formed. I think the subtle error of "professing to know God, but in works they denying Him" has slithered its way into elements of the apostolic church (Titus 1:16). In fact, I think this is the battle of our day: will we have a church that is apostolic in name only or one that actually lives out the faith in the fluness of its glory?

 

[Mike R. Prevost]

David Huston said:

The person who sees sin as the destructive evil that it is will never "forget" to confess one.

 

OK.  What happens if you die before confessing one?

 

 

[David Huston]

Your question seems to imply that Jesus is just looking for a chance to trip us up so He can prevent us from obtaining the glory He died to give us. I would answer your question the same way I answer those who ask me about someone who wants to get baptized but dies before he can: Jesus wouldn't let it happen. If God be for us, who can be against us? It's the adversary who stirs up doubt about such things. Jesus is for us. Jesus is our Savior. He is savings us. Since He has said that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, then I have to believe He will not let anyone forget to confess or run out of time. I've been born again for almost 30 years and though I have sinned many times, I have never once been unaware that I was sinning. And I have never once been unwilling to immediately admit I had sinned, sometimes even while I was in the act. The idea that a saved person could forget to confess is ludicrous. It would be like forgetting to get out of bed in the morning. 

[Mike Gibson]

 

As to forgetting to confess a sin consider that the disciple is one who is giving himself completely to his master. What the master wants is more important than what he wants. So those who are walking in maturity or perfection to Jesus will be very sensitive to pleasing him. As Dave pointed out there would not be much chance one walking closely to Jesus would just forget to confess.

 

As to what would happen to one if he died before he confessed his sin Dave put it accurately. If God knew that persons heart was still toward him he would give him space to repent. Even the false prophetess Jezebel in the New Testament Church was given a space (period of time) to repent.

 

Yet God also knows if someone who HAS BEEN walking in the light has now given up their faith and love for him in their heart. If he allows them to die in their sin then they will be an example of what Peter said:

 

2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

 

In short if one "forgets" to repent of sin commited and God allows him to die in it it would be because HE KNOWS that person is no longer following him in truth.

 

 

[Mike Gibson]

 

Lets look at it from this scripture.

 

4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  Ephesians 4:11-13

 

It looks as if the job of the ministry is to bring saints to the full stature of Jesus Christ. That means we are to become the same as Jesus. After all he wants like any man does to marry a bride that is the same stature as himself.

 

So this is important to Jesus. The time we have on Earth is given to us to make sure that this happens. Our entire lives should be focused upon this. The most important thing in our life should be our walk with him. Thats what discipleship is all about.

 

Are we preparing ourselves to marry Jesus Christ? Is he going to marry the lukewarm? Those who still have sin in their lives?

 

Our is he coming for something more like this?

 

5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.   Ephesians 5:25-27

 

 

 

 

[David Huston]

What does Paul mean when he says "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing"? This seems to be contrasted with being "holy and without blemish."

[Mike Gibson]

 

It seems to tie in with this:

 

3:4  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. Rev. 3:4

 

The spots and wrinkles must be sins because Jesus seems to be saying that those who have them (defiled garments) are not worthy of him neither will walk with him. This is why the message is so important. The prevailing thought that either we sin everyday OR we will never in this life be free from it will, if we take Jesus at his word cause many to be lost.

And the shocking thing is this IS the prevailing message. Its very hard to find ANYONE who teaches Biblical perfection and holiness.

[Donald L. Evans]

I haven't taken the time to read everything that has been written here concerning the issue of "perfection," which Jesus addressed within the context of Matthew 5:48, therefore I am unaware of whether anyone has construed it as a reference to what I prefer to call "excellency of knowledge," that is to say, being willing to make whatever investment of our time and energies might be required to possess an understanding of the truth which enables one to dispel whatever ignorance they might have entertained about spiritual things. 

 

Much has been written in the sacred Scriptures regarding our need to exert efforts towards attaining "knowledge" of the truth;  

 

Jesus advises that "if ye continue in my word... ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32)

Paul was inspired of God to instruct us to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15)

Peter's inspired writings commands us to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..."  (II Peter 3:18)

 

Indeed, as for me, and as a result of my effort and desire to excel in my understanding of God's written word, I am persuaded to embrace the belief that among the "gifts of the Spirit," as enumerated by Paul in I Corinthians 12:8-10, that one which speaks of "the word of knowledge,"  is to be interpreted as a reference to God's enabling of one who seeks to attain "excellency of knowledge"  of Himself, the ability to acquire it. 

 

Just some of my thoughts about this matter, respectfully tendered for consideration and comment (if desired).

 

 

[Mike R. Prevost]

 

 

Donald L. Evans said:

[...] Just some of my thoughts about this matter, respectfully tendered for consideration and comment (if desired).

 

Good to meet you, Donald.  Are you an Apostolic man interested in things like Biblical Eldership and such?  How did you find your way here?

 

It does seem that if one's works were to be perfect, that he would have to have a perfect knowledge of God's requirements.  His "list of sins" would have to be the same as God's.  Since virtually no one agrees on their "list of sins" it seems that no virtually no one has perfect knowledge.  

 

[Of course, this idea of a "list of sins" is based on the idea that one's works must be perfect for them to be saved -- the proposition put forth in this thread by Mike Gibson, and perhaps by David Houston.]

 

[Donald L. Evans]

Greetings Mike!

Yes, I am one that is very much interested in Biblical Eldership and such, being persuaded to embrace this largely because of the apostle Paul's actions and words as found in Acts 20 - especially noting that he referred to those who held positions of leadership in the church at Ephesus as "overseers" (i.e., noting a plurality, as opposed to the more common practice one witnesses today wherein a single individual exercises this function) in the church.

I became aware of the existence of this website via remarks made by a participant in another apostolic forum.  After visiting here and expending some time in reading many of the comments posted by yourself and others, sought to be accepted as an active member.

With regards to my comments concerning "perfection," they were intended more towards that of one's acquisition of knowledge of the manner in which God operates in His relationship with His creation (notably mankind), rather than learning about a particular "list of sins" which one must exert efforts to abstain from.   By this I hold to the words of Jeremiah 9:23-24, especially these - ...let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth:  for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

My belief in the importance of one's acquisition of "knowledge" which enables them to "glory" (i.e., boast) of knowing and understanding the manner in which God performs these actions among mankind, is further enhanced by the wise sayings of Solomon, as written in Ecclesiastes 7:12 - For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence:  but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

An extremely interesting topic of discussion, indeed.

While I must be quick to agree that perhaps it is near impossible for one to attain "perfect knowledge," nevertheless its pursuit must be one that individual who seeks to please God must diligently pursue.

Warmest regards