Be Ye Perfect

[Mike Gibson]

 

Jesus said in Matthew 5:48:

 

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

 

I believe this is to be the "standard" for every Christian. What do you think?

[Mike Gibson]

 

We are taught by the Apostle that we are a newcreation.

 

5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  2 Cor. 5:17

 

The Lord Jesus has bore or sins and our punishment. We have been washed in his blood and taken his name in baptism. All that are part of the Church of Jesus have recieved the Holy Spirit baptism. We have the Glorious One on the inside of us!

 

1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:    Col. 1:27

 

The one who spoke and Galaxies appeared to fill the Universe is inside the disciple! How awesome we say!

 

The Apostle John said this:

 

4:4  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4

 

The GREAT ONE abides in us and we abide in him. We are clothed with him. Why is it we dont expect to overcome sin? If Jesus could create millions of Galaxies containing billions of stars why can he not deliver us from sin?

 

Have we limited the Holy One of Israel? Every Pastor and Teacher should be teaching this as much as they teach anything. The Saints would be encouraged in thier faith and wake up to the fact that Jesus is not accepting those whose works are not perfect.

 

This is a salvation message and is begging to be taught.

 

 

 

 

[David Huston]

Hello brothers,

I just returned from two weeks in Nigeria, which is why I have only now become aware of this new forum. What a great topic! In fact, this topic is a passion of mine! I want to go back to the original verse Mike Gibson posted and place it into context.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:43-48

Could we conclude that the meaning of perfect/mature/complete in this particular context consists of loving ones enemies, blessing those who curse you, doing good to those who hate you, and praying for those who persecute you?  Isn't this the way God is? He is kind to all, both the righteous and the unrighteous. He makes the sun rise and the rain fall on everyone. So isn't Jesus simply saying that since this is how God is, we should all be this way. Isn't this the fulfilliment of the Great Commandments, to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength and to love others as yourself? Isn't the failure to do so equal to being no better than an IRS agent (i.e. a tax collector)? As one man said concerning our obedience to the Great Commandments, "There is nothing greater we can do and nothing less we must do."

[Mike Gibson]

 

Hi Dave welcome back! Maybe you can start a thread on the state of the Church in Nigeria? The doctrine of perfection is also one of my passions. There is so little teaching on it that people are a bit stand offish about it I think.

What you said is good. The Father is working in us a new nature. One designed after his own. He wants us to be like David was "a man after his own heart". Jesus said "blessed are the pure in heart" for they shall see God. If the Christian faith is about anything its about us being like Christ.

 

 

[Mike R. Prevost]

 

Mike Gibson said:

If the Christian faith is about anything its about us being like Christ.

 

I agree.  However, I am not willing to say that I am perfect like God is perfect or that I am as righteous as God Himself.  Such would be blasphemous.  I tend to think that anyone who makes this claim is either a liar or is blinded by arrogance.  I don't think anyone here has made this claim yet.

 

1Jn 1:5-10 KJV  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.  {6}  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:  {7}  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.  {8}  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  {9}  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  {10}  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

The only sense in which I can see that our righteousness is as perfect as Christ's perfect righteousness is in a "positional" sense -- Christ's righteousness is imputed to us in a legal sense (Rom 4).  This is called "justification".  "Sanctification" is wholly different idea -- it is a lifelong process of being molded by the Spirit.  If there is any progress toward Christlikeness whatsoever, the progress itself is evidence that we were not entirely perfect to begin with, else there could be no progress toward it.

 

Php 3:8-15 KJV  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,  {9}  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:  {10}  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;  {11}  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.  {12}  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.  {13}  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,  {14}  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  {15}  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

Here, Paul says that he IS NOT "perfect" in vs 12.  Then he says that he IS "perfect" in vs 15.  He is using the same word in two different ways.  He says that he has not "attained" and has not "apprehended" and is still "press[ing] toward the mark".  This is progress toward perfection, along with his own explicit admission of imperfection, are pretty clear evidences that Paul was not perfect like God is perfect. He was on a journey, but had not arrived at the destination.

 

Perhaps you are confusing justification and sanctification.  But I tend to think that I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

[Mike Gibson]

 

It is my opinion that the balance between "positional" and "practical" righteousness has swung to far in recent years. The good fruit that a Christian bears comes from the fact that Jesus the holy one has made him a new creation. All the things that God has proclaimed for the Christian in giving him a new identity in Christ are meant to have reality in our lives.

 

God declares us righteous because of Christs death for us. Yet he puts the Spirit in us to work in us to accomplish his task which is to make us like him. Many teachers have accepted the Evangelical/Protestant position that practical holiness is basically an option. They teach (most but not all) that one stage is to get saved. Once that happens you will continue in that salvation whether you go on with the Lords discipline or not. Some then would say that if you really want more of Jesus then you can become a disciple and begin to actually try to do his will. Yet even then most would say your salvation is secure whether you do the will of God with your life or not.

I believe this is making the standard of the Christian faith to low. The things that God says about us as a legal, positional righteousness he expects to work by faith bringing us to want to do his will and then to actually do it.

 

2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

 

[Mike Gibson]

 

A misunderstanding of Johns writings has led some to think we can never be free from sin. Lets take another look.

 

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 1:8

Standing alone and out of context it looks to be true. However lets look at the wider context and we will see a different meaning.

1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. John 1:5-8

The problem comes because most do not percieve that verse 8 is referring back to verse 6. John was addressing a specific problem among believers. That some were claiming they were having fellowship (being in touch with God) with God yet they were walking in darkness.

They were commiting some sin yet they thought they were still in fellowship with the Lord. This was the lie. When one is stuck in a sin and refuses to admit it they lie to themselves and become convinced they are still in fellowship with Jesus.

Verse 7 is telling them (or us as it may be) that if we will come back into the light the blood of Jesus will cleanse them from all sin.

Verse 8 then returns to the same point as verse 6.

That being, if one trys to cover their sin and does not admit their true condition they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them.

Verse 9 tells how to break the deception and be cleansed of the sin. Instead of saying "I am not in sin" or "I have no sin" we are to confess the sin and be forgiven by Christ.

Verse 10 is further admonition to confess and agree with God that sin has affected the relationship between God and the offender. If confession and repentance does not happen the person is disagreeing with God. In his deception he thinks God is still blessing him and showing him favor. In effect he is calling God a liar.

So please understand. When John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" it was not written to say the average believer could never be without sin.

Obviously this would be a contradiction to other statements by the same apostle in the same book!

For instance:

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John 2:1

Here John plainy tells believers to sin not. It would certainly be confusing if the same apostle who tells people to "sin not" would tell the same people that if they said they had no sin they were liars and the truth was not in them as if it could not be done!

He simply adds that IF not even when but IF you sin you can be forgiven by God through Jesus Christ.

Again a few verses later the matter of who it is that is deceived comes again into focus.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Here John says if we say we know him and do NOT keep his commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us!

So IN CONTEXT we can see this is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE message that many are getting out of the apostles writing. Most today think if you say you are not commiting sin YOU are the liar.

Johns real meaning was that those who say they are in fellowship with God and are not keeping his commands (commiting sin) are those who are liars and deceived!

Here are a few more examples from other apostles that if John were telling Christians they were deceived if they thought they were living without sin would be contradictions.

Apostle Paul:

15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

He tells the saints to sin not. He says the exact thing John said in 1 John 2:1

Apostle Peter:

2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2 Peter 2:14

Peter mentions those who cannot cease from sin in quite a negative light! If he reproves souls who cannot stop sinning he must have believed they COULD STOP SINNING!

So friend it seems all the apostles taught we could walk without sin.
One more example from Johns writings:

2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:5-6

So in conclusion when John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" he is focusing on those WHO ACTUALLY DO have sin in their lives and instead of confessing it are holding on to it.

THEY my friends are the ones who his admonition is meant for. He was not trying to say that obedient saints who were actually keeping the Lords word were deceived for doing what he himself had told them to do.

It was simply showing that we are to confess if indeed we have sinned instead of trying to cover our sins. That would only lead to deception.

Hope this helps!

[Mike Gibson]

 

The Apostle Paul said in one verse he was not perfect yet a few verses later that he was. What gives?

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Phil.3:8-15

Verse 12-Not perfect
Verse 15-Was perfect

What is the reconciliation of the two?

Here is the reconciliation.

In what was Paul not perfect?

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phil. 3:8-12

Verse 8 seems clear that Paul had forsaken all to follow Christ.
He counted all the world as dung compared to knowing Jesus.
I believe that proves there was no sin in his life. Hardly ANYONE nowadays would make such a bold statement about their love and devotion to Christ. So in what way was he NOT perfect?

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Just because one is FINISHED WITH SIN does NOT mean they know JESUS AS CLOSELY AND INTIMATELY as they could know him. Really it is only when we forsake sin, the world and its ways are we able to begin to GROW IN GRACE AND KNOWLEDGE of Jesus.

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Peter 2:1-2

So AFTER these things are put aside THEN one begins to grow.

Paul was not perfect(complete) in KNOWING JESUS as fully as he could be known. He wantd to KNOW HIM more. More of the POWER of his resurrection. More of the SUFFERINGS of Jesus in his flesh. To be conformed to his DEATH. THEN the next step would be THE RESURRECTION of the dead!

Then Paul would SEE HIS LOVE FACE TO FACE!

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Cor. 13:10-12

Then he would be PERFECTED in knowing Jesus! Each day we can know him more by simply coming into his presence. By being sensitive to his Spirit. By fellowshipping with others that are of the same mind.

If someone gave Paul (or us) a word of true prophecy then we would know him more than we knew him before. He wants to reveal more of his love and self all through our lives. In this we will not reach perfection until we see him face to face. Then our hearts(or whatever we use to love with then) will come to a GLORIOUS SATISFACTION and our fellowship will be FULLY CONSUMATED.

In what way was he already perfect?

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Phil.3:8-15

He was already perfect in the sense that his heart was fixed on the goal and sin was no longer between him and his Lord.

10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
1 Thessalonians 2:10

He was able to CALL GOD FOR A WITNESS that not only he but also his friends were living holy, just, and blameless lives.

So there was no contradiction in his writing to the Philippians.

Not perfect- Wanted still MORE of Jesus
Was perfect-Living a blameless life

Let us be like Paul. Once we have known the love of Jesus how could we possibly feel complete until we look into his face?

While we are waiting for that day let us like Paul count all things but dung for the EXCELLENCY of HIM.

Let us be able to call God for a witness that we live holy, justly, and without blame.

[Mike Gibson]

 

Mike P

The only sense in which I can see that our righteousness is as perfect as Christ's perfect righteousness is in a "positional" sense -- Christ's righteousness is imputed to us in a legal sense (Rom 4).  This is called "justification".  "Sanctification" is wholly different idea -- it is a lifelong process of being molded by the Spirit.  If there is any progress toward Christlikeness whatsoever, the progress itself is evidence that we were not entirely perfect to begin with, else there could be no progress toward it.

 

MikeG

 

Do you believe sanctification is essential to enter the kingdom of God?

 

 

[Mike Gibson]

 

It seems that sanctification is essential to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

  Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14

The word for holiness in this verse is the very same Greek word that is also used for santification.

 

So certainly justification is essential to salvation but as to "final" salvation so is sanctification.

[Mike R. Prevost]

 

Mike Gibson said:

 

It is my opinion that the balance between "positional" and "practical" righteousness has swung to far in recent years. The good fruit that a Christian bears comes from the fact that Jesus the holy one has made him a new creation. All the things that God has proclaimed for the Christian in giving him a new identity in Christ are meant to have reality in our lives.

 

God declares us righteous because of Christs death for us. Yet he puts the Spirit in us to work in us to accomplish his task which is to make us like him. Many teachers have accepted the Evangelical/Protestant position that practical holiness is basically an option. They teach (most but not all) that one stage is to get saved. Once that happens you will continue in that salvation whether you go on with the Lords discipline or not. Some then would say that if you really want more of Jesus then you can become a disciple and begin to actually try to do his will. Yet even then most would say your salvation is secure whether you do the will of God with your life or not.

I believe this is making the standard of the Christian faith to low. The things that God says about us as a legal, positional righteousness he expects to work by faith bringing us to want to do his will and then to actually do it.

 

I'm with you here -- the pendulum is way far left.  But it seems that you are not wanting to swing the pendulum the other way, but rather, it seems like you are getting rid of the pendulum.  You don't seem to be a "salvation by grace" guy, but a "salvation by works" guy.  That's what's bugging me.

 

I totally believe the Christians are "free from sin".  Rom 6 explains it very clearly.  There is no good reason for Christians to sin.  It shouldn't happen.

 

I am not, however, willing to say that salvation is by works, which is what I interpret you mean when you say that your works must be perfect to be saved.  Salvation is not based on works, it is based on faith.  I DO believe that saving faith is evidenced by works.  The hypothetical man of Rom 4 who has faith without works is just that -- hypothetical.  James 2 makes that clear.

 

Sanctification is required for salvation to the extent that works are evidence of saving faith.  I like to say "Progress is mandatory".  I don't see any way around saying that "Perfection is mandatory" is anything but a false, doctrinal extremism.

 

I'm sure that by arguing against you, it seems like I'm trying to justify sin.  Perhaps we should discuss this over a couple of beers.  Maybe we'll find some loose women in the process.  How 'bout it?

 

;)

 

 

 

[Mike Gibson]

Mike R. Prevost said:

 

Mike Gibson said:

 

It is my opinion that the balance between "positional" and "practical" righteousness has swung to far in recent years. The good fruit that a Christian bears comes from the fact that Jesus the holy one has made him a new creation. All the things that God has proclaimed for the Christian in giving him a new identity in Christ are meant to have reality in our lives.

 

God declares us righteous because of Christs death for us. Yet he puts the Spirit in us to work in us to accomplish his task which is to make us like him. Many teachers have accepted the Evangelical/Protestant position that practical holiness is basically an option. They teach (most but not all) that one stage is to get saved. Once that happens you will continue in that salvation whether you go on with the Lords discipline or not. Some then would say that if you really want more of Jesus then you can become a disciple and begin to actually try to do his will. Yet even then most would say your salvation is secure whether you do the will of God with your life or not.

I believe this is making the standard of the Christian faith to low. The things that God says about us as a legal, positional righteousness he expects to work by faith bringing us to want to do his will and then to actually do it.

 

I'm with you here -- the pendulum is way far left.  But it seems that you are not wanting to swing the pendulum the other way, but rather, it seems like you are getting rid of the pendulum.  You don't seem to be a "salvation by grace" guy, but a "salvation by works" guy.  That's what's bugging me.

 

I totally believe the Christians are "free from sin".  Rom 6 explains it very clearly.  There is no good reason for Christians to sin.  It shouldn't happen.

 

I am not, however, willing to say that salvation is by works, which is what I interpret you mean when you say that your works must be perfect to be saved.  Salvation is not based on works, it is based on faith.  I DO believe that saving faith is evidenced by works.  The hypothetical man of Rom 4 who has faith without works is just that -- hypothetical.  James 2 makes that clear.

 

Sanctification is required for salvation to the extent that works are evidence of saving faith.  I like to say "Progress is mandatory".  I don't see any way around saying that "Perfection is mandatory" is anything but a false, doctrinal extremism.

 

I'm sure that by arguing against you, it seems like I'm trying to justify sin.  Perhaps we should discuss this over a couple of beers.  Maybe we'll find some loose women in the process.  How 'bout it?

 

;)

 

But remember this its not me who rebuked the Church for their works not being perfect. It was Jesus in Rev. 3:2. And again it was he who made it a matter of salvation by promising he would not blot out the overcomers out of his book.

 

As far as faith or works we will be judged by our works altho we were justified by faith. To say the requirement to (final) salvation is extremism would be doing away with the only standard Jesus gave us. I realize it sounds extreme but only because men have neglected or rejected the Lords teachings for so long and so completely.

 

If we just read scripture as it is apart from concepts we have picked up along the way the very words written would be plain.

 

Why would Jesus rebuke the New Testament Church in Sardis for their works not being perfect if it was not expected that they should be? Im glad we agree that sanctification is essential to salvation. I dont see any difference in scripture from the command to be sanctified (meaning holy) and the command to be perfect. 

 

5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

 

 

1:14  As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1:15  But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16  Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:14-16

 

Jesus says be perfect as the Father is perfect while Peter says be holy as the Father is holy.

 

I dont know what the standard of Christianity is if it is not this?

 

 

 

 

 

[David Huston]

A human being who drools and makes messy may be a "perfect" infant. We could even say his works are perfect! But one who does this when he's 25 is usually considered to be in some way retarded. Could it be that God's standard of perfection for each individual changes over time as we mature (go on unto perfection)? I have told people many times that we must enter in through the strait gate (Acts 2:38) but must then travel down the narrow way that leads to life. When the trumpet sounds, the issue won't be where exactly we are on the road as much as what direction we're traveling in. To me, the exhortation to "be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain" due to Jesus not finding "your works perfect before God" is roughly equivalent to the exhortation to "no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine... but...grow up in all things into Him who is the head" (Ephesians 4:14-15). In other words, He is rebuking the church for becoming stagnant and failing to live out their confession of faith to the degree they are capable. We have a few folks in our assembly that worry me in this regard. While I believe we are saved by the blood of Jesus through the new birth, I also believe we must live out our faith fully. Anything less is, in the end, to trample the Son of God underfoot, to count the blood of the covenant by which we are sanctified a common thing, and to insult the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29). And we have no excuse for not ultimately being perfect in all our works, since we serve a God who is able to keep us from stumbling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy ( Jude 24).