Be Ye Perfect

[Mike Gibson]

 

Jesus said in Matthew 5:48:

 

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

 

I believe this is to be the "standard" for every Christian. What do you think?

[Mike Gibson]

 

Yes Bro "complete" is a translation that seems ok to many. Just what does it mean though that ones works are "complete"? The context indicates their garments were defiled. They were not overcoming.

 

Jesus said to them to strengthen the things which remain that were ready to die. They seem to have given up on following Jesus in all things. He wants that from us. They were failing him by "falling short" of this.

[Mike R. Prevost]

Yes, all but two of the churches in the list were deficient in some way.  He always says that he knows their works and He tries to say something good about them starting out (all but two), but eventually says something like "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee", "But I have a few things against thee", "Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee", "I have not found thy works perfect before God", etc.  Seems like a segue into telling them the bad stuff.

 

[Mike Gibson]

 

Jesus gives us the good and the bad news concerning where we stand with him. It seems that much of the writings to the Churches are either to point us to the standard (complete obedience) or to encourage those who are doing it to keep doing it!

 

Some Teachers point to all the problems or sins that were happening in the Churches and say this is the norm and what we can expect from the Saints nowadays. Another look shows us that these various sins the Apostles wrote about were being addressed so they could be repented of and the Saints brought back into a pure state before the Lord.

 

They were to repent and come back into the righteousness of God. Paul told the Ephesian Church the kind of people Jesus was coming for at his return.

 

5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.    Ephesians 5:25-27

Those who are abiding in Jesus without spot wrinkle or blemish will be caught up to marry Jesus in due time. He wants a bride who is the full stature of himself!

 

This is the purpose of the five fold ministry. To assist Jesus and the Saints as they grow up into him in all things.

 

 

 

 

[Nathan Miller]

Brothers,

I don't mean to disrupt this interesting discussion about what exactly it means to be perfect/complete, but I wanted to include here a few things that I think are perhaps part of the problem with why so many churches don't try to be perfect/complete, etc.  I agree with the comments above, and the great comments on the passage in Romans, by the way.

1.  When one man has the ultimate authority in an assembly, or say an organizational head above and outside the local congregation, this leader cannot really be complete in his spiritual leadership--therefore the church will lack in perfectness and completeness.  A hierarchical leadership structure may be good for getting the job done, as in the army.  It is not ideal for perfecting the saints.

2.  Because of the false belief in many churches of the way in which God's anointing flows (from Christ through the pastor and then to other saints, on down to the lower levels), even when God has placed members in the body to build it up in various areas, this is sometimes trumped by the weaknesses of the one main leader.  I have seen this happen several times.  Where a spirit of humility and service to God and one another is not the general attitude, it is hard to improve. 

3.  As a consequence, saints are taught that "no church is perfect" (as in none will ever be that way), and that we simply need to learn to "get along",  that we should expect "problems", etc...  This can become a way of overlooking a problem instead of treating the underlying issues. 

4.  Many Apostolics truly believe, it seems, that their version of Christianity is all that there is, although they may not state it this way.  They are in "the truth".  Of course, this really refers just to baptism in Jesus' name and the necessity of the Spirit baptism and perhaps a few other things such as holiness standards, etc. Consequently, when one loses the spirit of restoration which has carried the church over the centuries back to the apostle's doctrine and practices--and which is still ongoing!--then it is easy to explain away any imperfection and incompleteness.  A healthy desire for God's restoration is important.

5.  The times that are upon us mean that evil is more and more prevalent, and thus sadly, becomes easier to accept within the church.  Things that most worldly people wouldn't have accepted 100 or so years ago, are nearly mainstream within many churches. 

These things may need to be addressed in the leadership of individual assemblies within the context of "being perfect/complete" as a Christian so that we don't hamper the perfecting of the saints that God wants.  I assume that most reading these posts will have already realized these things and could even add to this list, which may or may not be helpful.

 

By the way, I believe that this discussion really ties in with the whole purpose of this network.  Keep it coming!

[Mike Gibson]

 

Hi Nathan,

 

I agree we certainly have not seen everything restored that needs to be. For many years I have been praying for the building up of Five fold ministries and have seen the need for muliple eldership. The teaching of Biblical Perfection and Holiness I believe will take us to a place of intimacy with Jesus that will result in a much deeper and soul satisfying revelation of him.  peace, mike

[Mike R. Prevost]

Can everyone whose works are perfect please respond to this discussion with the words "My works are perfect."

 

Thanks!

 

[Phillip W. Gordon]

 

 

  Nathan

 

       Thank you for your post.  Being that the truth of baptism in Jesus name began to be restored to the church at the beginning of the last century, I hope that the rest of the truth that has been abandoned by the 'harlot church" will continue to be restored, and of course that will be to a remnant.

       If the "doma" gifts are not openly installed in local assemblies, I personally don't believe correct understanding of what God requires of the church will ever be  understood among many. The "greasy grace" message has moved in among Spirit filled people and the standard for God's people has been lowered. But, there is one thing that has never changed, and that is the Truth of God's Holy Word.

      When Paul said, "I am ready now to be offered" I believe that he was telling us that he had "completed" his walk on earth in Christ.  The only sacrifice that God accepts is a perfect sacrifice, which I believe that was what Paul was saying.

  Phillip

Nathan Miller said:

Brothers,

I don't mean to disrupt this interesting discussion about what exactly it means to be perfect/complete, but I wanted to include here a few things that I think are perhaps part of the problem with why so many churches don't try to be perfect/complete, etc.  I agree with the comments above, and the great comments on the passage in Romans, by the way.

1.  When one man has the ultimate authority in an assembly, or say an organizational head above and outside the local congregation, this leader cannot really be complete in his spiritual leadership--therefore the church will lack in perfectness and completeness.  A hierarchical leadership structure may be good for getting the job done, as in the army.  It is not ideal for perfecting the saints.

2.  Because of the false belief in many churches of the way in which God's anointing flows (from Christ through the pastor and then to other saints, on down to the lower levels), even when God has placed members in the body to build it up in various areas, this is sometimes trumped by the weaknesses of the one main leader.  I have seen this happen several times.  Where a spirit of humility and service to God and one another is not the general attitude, it is hard to improve. 

3.  As a consequence, saints are taught that "no church is perfect" (as in none will ever be that way), and that we simply need to learn to "get along",  that we should expect "problems", etc...  This can become a way of overlooking a problem instead of treating the underlying issues. 

4.  Many Apostolics truly believe, it seems, that their version of Christianity is all that there is, although they may not state it this way.  They are in "the truth".  Of course, this really refers just to baptism in Jesus' name and the necessity of the Spirit baptism and perhaps a few other things such as holiness standards, etc. Consequently, when one loses the spirit of restoration which has carried the church over the centuries back to the apostle's doctrine and practices--and which is still ongoing!--then it is easy to explain away any imperfection and incompleteness.  A healthy desire for God's restoration is important.

5.  The times that are upon us mean that evil is more and more prevalent, and thus sadly, becomes easier to accept within the church.  Things that most worldly people wouldn't have accepted 100 or so years ago, are nearly mainstream within many churches. 

These things may need to be addressed in the leadership of individual assemblies within the context of "being perfect/complete" as a Christian so that we don't hamper the perfecting of the saints that God wants.  I assume that most reading these posts will have already realized these things and could even add to this list, which may or may not be helpful.

 

By the way, I believe that this discussion really ties in with the whole purpose of this network.  Keep it coming!

[Phillip W. Gordon]

  Mike

 

       If I would answer you by saying that, would not that disqualify me from perfection?  I have known individuals that have told me that they are perfect.  I started out in a church that taught, "sinless perfection", and  the fruit of many of these folks did not line up with the Word of God.
Mike R. Prevost said:

Can everyone whose works are perfect please respond to this discussion with the words "My works are perfect."

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Mike R. Prevost]

Phillip W. Gordon said:

  If I would answer you by saying that, would not that disqualify me from perfection? 

 

Why would it disqualify you?  God said to be perfect.  It's definitely nothing to be ashamed of.  You asserted that Paul said that he was a perfect sacrifice.  If you can't get to heaven unless your works are perfect, then this is a very important thing to know.

 

I will repeat my query:

 

Can everyone whose works are perfect please reply to this discussion with the words "My works are perfect."

 

Thanks!

 

[Mike Gibson]

 

Hi Mike,

 

If it turned out that I were actually harboring sin I dont think it would change anything that I have written concerning what Jesus expects from his people do you? Im not aware of any sin in my life but I feel that should be the norm for every Christian on Earth!

 

If one keeps all Jesus commandments they are only doing that which is their duty to do.

 

17:7  But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
17:8  And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
17:9  Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
17:10  So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.   Luke 17:7-10

So if we are consistently obedient that would be nothing to be puffed up about. It would just be doing what we were designed to be doing.  We are  unprofitable servants!

 

The Apostle Paul said this concerning himself and his companions.

 

2:10  Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:  1 Thessalonians 2:10

 

Paul knew where he was in Christ. He knew he had no option about being blameless before Jesus Christ. He also understood where his friends were in Jesus.

 

Now we must see that Paul was not boasting. He simply understood this as being the normal Christian life. Today its the other way around! Many feel its normal for the Christian to have sin in their life.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike R. Prevost]

 

Mike Gibson said:

If it turned out that I were actually harboring sin I dont think it would change anything that I have written concerning what Jesus expects from his people do you? Im not aware of any sin in my life but I feel that should be the norm for every Christian on Earth!

 

Ok.  You are not aware of any sin in your life.  But are you unwilling to say that your works are perfect?  If so, why?

[Mike Gibson]

 

Well I have no certain reason to not say my works are complete or perfect before the Lord. If they are not and it is certainly the Lords call whether they are or not then I stand in danger of having my name blotted out of the book of life.

 

My hope for all of us is exactly that. That our works are perfect before him. That we are perfect before him. Anything less than that leaves us in great danger. Thats why there is so much teaching about it in the New Testament Church.