My correspondence with Ian Vincent.

[David Huston]

I realize this is a bit long, but I am posting this correspondence between myself an a man named Ian Vincent, who applied to join the Glorious Church Network. Please feel free to critique me if you believe I have treated this man unfairly or unkindly. Also, please let me know if you believe we need to change anything about how we present what we stand for on the website or how a person applies for membership. Thanks. Bro. Dave Huston

When I received Ian’s request to join, I sent him back our standard letter which begins as follows...

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GLORIOUS CHURCH NETWORK, YOU MUST READ THIS LETTER AND SEND BACK YOUR REPLY.

Dear Sir,
We have received your application for membership on the Glorious Church Network site. The Network is an informal connection between like-minded brethren who have linked together for fellowship, mutual edification, and the advance of the kingdom of God.

We trust that you have already read through our Description and Policies of the Network. Please read carefully our Five Pillars of Fellowship, our Core Values, and our Membership Commitments (below). Once you have determined that you can in good conscience affirm that you are in full agreement with them, please reply to this email with a short statement of your agreement. Once we have received your affirmative reply, we will add you as a member. Thank you and may the Lord Jesus be with you always.

Dave Huston, Administrator
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Here is Ian's innitial response followed by all the subsequent correspondences.

Dear Dave,

As equals in Christ it’s a 2 way street, so we also need to be sure you are genuine before we could accept you into fellowship. Re: 3. The Oneness of God: All members of the Network agree that God is one (not two or three) and that it was this self-same God who came in the flesh, lived without sin, laid down His life, was raised from the dead, ascended into heaven, and poured out the Holy Spirit. The Son of God is therefore not a secondary divine being but God the Father in flesh; and in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and the name Jesus is the only name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

Would you agree with this statement, that there are three in heaven, and these three are one?
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Would you also agree with the fact that the Father and the Son are distinct by relationship, yet one God?
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
Meaning, they deny the distinction/the eternal relationship between the Father and the Son.

Looking forward to hear from you, Thanks Ian Vincent

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Dear Ian,
I have not asked to join you in fellowship. You have asked if you can join our network of like-minded brethren. We are Oneness in doctrine. We are not Arian or Trinitarian. If you believe that the one Creator God (the Father) was manifested in the flesh (the humanity, which is the Son), then we may be able to get along. If you believe that the Son existed before His birth as an eternal being distinct from the Father, then we cannot join in fellowship. So you must convince me that you agree with us. I am under no compulsion to have to convince you that I agree with you. Please write back if you still want to join.

Bro. Dave Huston
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Bro. Dave
In a message dated 1/6/2010 10:54:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes: “So you must convince me that you agree with us. I am under no compulsion to have to convince you that I agree with you.” Sure, if you don’t want a mutually respectful dialogue then there’s nothing I can do about that. I’m still giving you the benefit of the doubt, waiting for an honest and intelligent answer to the questions I’ve asked.

I hope you’re not the same as the UPC and the Branhamites etc. I’ve met hundreds of Oneness people over the last 20 years and visited their churches and not one I’ve met has assurance of salvation and most I’ve met are under a demonic influence. I hope you’re not one of them. And I also know some who got delivered from that spirit and are now free.

Ian
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We believe that Jesus Christ is the Father in flesh. The flesh element is the Son of God, conceived by the Spirit in a particular moment of time and subsequently born of Mary. The Father is Spirit, which is eternal and invisible. Hence, the Son is the image of the invisible Father.

In the sense that God's flesh is in relationship with His Spirit, then yes, we would agree that the Father and Son are presently in relationship. However, we do not consider this to be a central issue. More important to us is the identify of the one true God, not the relational dynamic between Spirit and flesh. In Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily--this much we know. Therefore, when we call on the name of Jesus, we are calling on the great eternal creator God, who declared, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one!"

Hope this answers your questions. BTW, what differences do you see in those UPC people who got delivered from that spirit and those who have not?

Dave
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Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Pro 30:4 Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell?

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, You are my beloved Son; in you I am well pleased.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, who has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father.

Joh 6:62 What if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Joh 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 16:23 And in that day you shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father who is in heaven.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forevermore, knows that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is clear that he is excepted, who did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstbegotten into the world, he says, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, you, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands:

If the Son of God did not exist before His incarnation then how was He sent by the Father into the world? How did He come down from heaven if He did not exist? How could he say He knew the Father and was with Him and saw Him before the foundation of the world if He did not exist then?
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Ian, I'll answer your questions but you first have to answer mine. Fair is fair.
DH
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Dave,
This is the only question you asked me: “BTW, what differences do you see in those UPC people who got delivered from that spirit and those who have not?” They were not in the UPC, they were saved people, but had come under the influence of the Oneness doctrine, and when I shared the same scriptures which i just shared with you then they realized that it is a doctrine of demons and that it’s not the Jesus of the Bible, and they left it. The root of all heresies is pride, so when they let go of their heresy they became more humble and less arrogant.

Anyway, I’ll leave you with these scriptures, which prove your ‘jesus’ is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Ian
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Ian, you state on your blog that you agree with the substance of the Apostles' Creed. That's a wrap for us. We worship different Gods. I guess time will tell which of us is worshiping the true God. In the mean time, we are denying your entrance into the Glorious Church Network.

Dave Huston
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So, no answer to the scriptures I gave you?

“We worship different Gods. I guess time will tell which of us is worshiping the true God.”

So sickening to read this garbage. When you spit on the brethren whom Jesus purchased with His own Blood then you spit on Him.
Ian
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Ian, you are the one who called Oneness doctrine a heresy. You have spit on me, not me on you. I don't have time right now to write out responses to all those scriptures. I have answered many of these before. All can be explained with correct Oneness doctrine. But if you have already concluded that anyone who believes in Oneness is deceived, I don't think there's any point in trying to convince you otherwise. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these matters and perhaps I will have time to put together a response to these verses at some point in the future, but I think we have made our position very clear with the articles on our website. Our objective is not to get into endless debates with hard-core Trinitarians or Arians. It is to manifest the truth (as we see) to those who have a heart to hear.

Be bless,
Dave Huston
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So far you’ve only showed yourself to be devious and deceptive. If you can’t say amen to those scriptures then you’re being slippery. The same way you are deceptive to not state clearly on your website that you are a Oneness sect.

You are acting just in line with all the other Oneness people I’ve met : slippery, dishonest, no Christian character.

I think that some may have joined your network not knowing you are Oneness. When I’m able I will notify as many people as I can around the world that you are a cult.
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Ian, I can say amen to all of those Scriptures without reservation. That is not the issue. The issue has to do with what they are understood to mean. You see them one way, I see them another.

Our website states, "The Oneness of God: All members of the Network agree that God is one (not two or three) and that it was this self-same God who came in the flesh, lived without sin, laid down His life, was raised from the dead, ascended into heaven, and poured out the Holy Spirit. The Son of God is therefore not a secondary divine being but God the Father in flesh; and in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and the name Jesus is the only name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved."

I don't think anyone could mistake this for Trintarianism or Arianism. So your accusations of "devious" and "slippery" and "cult" are without basis. We are very open about what we believe and we don't try to cram it down anyone's throat. All we are saying is that if you want to join our network, you must affirm that you agree with this description of God. If you don't, that is between you and God. I'm sorry our communication has upset you so.
Be blessed,
Dave Huston
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What’s the point of saying amen to a scripture if you don’t believe it? That would be lying.

Jesus said He was with the Father, saw the Father, was sent by the Father, and you say no. Jesus is right and you are a liar.

Yes, you are deceiving on your website, the thing about Oneness is only discovered when one tries to join the network, its not openly stated on the website.

You believe that anyone not in your little cult, who is not Oneness, is going to hell bcos they worship “a different God”. Right? Why don’t you state that in bold on your website??
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Ian, I do believe the Scriptures you referenced. I believe the entire Bible is the Word of God. The difference you and I have has to do with what meaning we attribute to various verses. I believe that Jesus was with the Father, saw the Father, and was sent by the Father. But I do not believe these ideas mean that the Son of God is a divine being distinct from the Father. Our network website is not a stand-alone. It is a subset of our main website, which is www.GloriousChurch.com. This site has many articles on our Oneness concept of God. Also, a reference is made right in the middle of the front page of the network site to our core values, which can be seen by clicking the link. Perhaps you don't understand that Oneness doctrine is not the central theme of this network, it is only one element. We are not trying to snare anyone. This is why I always send out another copy of our principles and core values to anyone wanting to join and ask for a statement of affirmation. I don't know how to be anymore up front than that. Sorry you are so worked up about this. I hope you can see that we have tried to be completely open about who we are and what we believe.
Be blessed,
Dave Huston
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I then received a copy of this letter, which was sent to Ian by a man named Mark Finger, who had also applied for membership and was apparently receiving forwards from Ian.

Ian,
I've read all the discourse between you and Dave. I was first concerned by the nature of Dave's response to you (that he did not invite you, but that you asked to admitted into their network, and that he had no compulsion to prove anything to you): I do not see this response as being in kind with the nature of the Spirit's testimony concerning His Son nor evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. Rather, it seems arrogant and unnecessarily antagonistic.

As far as their doctrine, it's demonic. Good for you for rebuking it with the word of God.

Sad.
Mark
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This is Ian’s response to Mark.

Hi brother Mark,
In his last mail to me he ‘appears’ to back peddle a little by saying he also believes that Jesus saw and knew the Father before His incarnation, whereas at the outset he said that when God became flesh then the Son of God came into existence, and then only as the ‘flesh’ aspect of the Father. I don’t believe he’s back peddling, rather being deceptive. He says that Jesus is “not a distinct being”. He seems to think that to acknowledge the Son of God is a Person distinct from the Father, yet One God, means to deny the Oneness of God. A distinct Person means that the Son was in relationship to the Father from eternity, made a conscious decision to submit to His Father and be sent by His Father into the world and made flesh. He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. When did he consider that? Before He became flesh.

In our dialogue note that he says that anyone who doesn’t adhere to his Oneness doctrine worships another god, meaning, they are not saved. So, what he is saying is that only his tiny cult ‘the glorious church’ is the glorious church, and all else are lost. The website is deceiving. You see the title ‘Glorious Church’ and think he means the Body of Christ, but he rejects the entire Body of Christ and calls his cult the ‘glorious church’.

But they don’t plainly tell you that up front. People coming to their site will just assume they mean the Body of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ.

Reading between the lines here is essential. He even has the audacity to say that they “don’t major on the Oneness doctrine” , yet they believe that only thru the Oneness doctrine is one saved. Very slippery dude. They believe they are saved by it, but they don’t major on it???

The context of my dialogue with him is this : Oneness is a doctrine held by a tiny percentage of professing born again Christians. It was never held by any credible man of God during the church age or now. Like I told him, out of the hundreds of them I’ve met I’ve never met one who has assurance of salvation. If you ask them how they know they are saved they say that they spoke in tongues, that’s how they know. If you visit any UPC you will discern the air thick with demons and ALL the people have this hopeless look on their face and darkness in the eyes.

And most certainly, thru his dialogue with me its plain he has no credibility, but is a false apostle and a deceiver.

Ian
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This is the last of my correspondence with Ian. If anyone in the network would like to take him on, his email address is [e-mail]. Mark Finger’s is [e-mail].

[Michael V. Frazier]

I am not sure how anyone could truly misunderstand the doctrinal position of this Ning site before applying. As was mentioned, this Ning site is tightly associated with the website www.gloriouschurch.com. That association cannot be easily overlooked. Therefore, it appears to me the entire effort on Ian's part was to create a confrontation.

Ian's intital e-mail, in my opinion, was a bit pompous, especially with the statement: "As equals in Christ it’s a 2 way street, so we also need to be sure you are genuine before we could accept you into fellowship." When I first read that, I was immediately struck with, "What audacity!" Perhaps he was trying to be honest, but that statement—no matter how much I try to look at it differently—still embodies a confrontational stance.

[Donnie Gillum]

Bro. Dave, I think Michael Frazier has pretty well summed up my thoughts on the matter as well.
Why does this man keep on with his confrontation when it seems, at least apparently, obvious that he knows he has no chance of joining GCN?

[Nathan Miller]

Praise the Lord Bro. Dave! I agree with the previous comments. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I also think that Ian was simply trying to prove something to himself. He writes as a person who has already made up his mind about something or someone, (in this case you and the network?) and then sets out to validate himself. While we can all be prone to this at times, I think it is actually dishonesty at work. I find this dishonesty especially revealing in that he ends up (or I guess from the very beginning) being very oppositional all the while wanting to join the network. For what purpose, one may now ask? Yet, it is you he accuses of being 'slippery'... Hmm. Classic. I'm sure, though, that he cannot see himself this way. None of us can see ourselves truly honestly, at least not very well. That's why we need one other, right?

Bless him!

[Donnie Gillum]

Also the nature of some given to argument for argument's sake.

[Brian & Michelle Schrift]

First of all, I am sad to say that this is the first I have read this. However, here are my thoughts. At what point did God become three? Sounds like Ian was having passionate discussion without history.....however very sad. Also, from what I remember when Jesus was telling the disciples in Matthew 28 to baptize in the name....the one name, (not names- which would make God plural, more than one....etc....etc..etc , baptizing in the 'name' of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. As far as I can remember, I am a Father, a Son and a Husband...however, these are not not my names....they are my titles....and it certainly doesn't make me three people....If I walked into to a bank today and wanted to cash a check for $1,000 and signed it with Father, Son and Holy Spirit on it, they would either laugh or call security...However, if I signed my name..I would have 10 fresh Benjamins in my pocket. The power of Salvation is in the name!! God did not complicate this, man did and it started with a man named Plato, and events such as the counsel of Nicea...etc....etc...God was always One until man made him two, three, 33,000 cows etc.......And yes if you are not Born of the Water and of the Spirit, which is very plainly written in the scriptures to mean being baptized in the name of Jesus.......not Father, Son and Holy Spirit...ref Acts2:38 (Peter was one of the disciples that was standing there in Matt 28, so he was eithering ignoring Jesus' command to Baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, or he knew exactly who Jesus was. He was the One God that was indeed the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). Peter went on to proclaim in the same scripture that 'you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. How do we know we have the Holy Spirit? Ref Acts 2:1-4...speaking in toungues. So let's go over the math.. Jesus said we must be born of the water and of the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. Born of the water= Baptized in Jesus name (the power is in the name) + Spirit = speaking with other tongues as the spirit gave them the utterance = entering the Kingdom of God... Unfortunately, and plainly put, it is indeed eternity with Jesus or a lake of fire and this is the only scriptural way to spend eternity with Jesus...If I even remotely questioned this but was able to at least see in the scripture, I would obey and let Jesus reveal it in its completeness as I continued to search the scriptures. As for me, when I a wake up, I don't want it to be hot....

Not that I have to convince anyone on the sight of these matters, I am sad that the devil can take ahold of someone, make them so blind when it is right there in front of them. Dave I am blessed to have you as a Pastor and friend. Well done! Your response was very good. Oh yeah, and if you ever have correspondence with Ian again, feel free to pass along my response. It has been 4 months since he wrote you.

Yours for His service,

Brian