The Glorious Church


Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch

the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his

house to be broken up. (LK 12:39 says, "broken through.")


In the light of the above scripture, just how far should the goodman of the house

be willing to go to keep his house from being "broken up" or "broken through" or what

we might say, broken into? 


Is concealed carry an option for Christians?

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Donnie Gillum said:

Here is an attachment by Larry Pratt, Executive Vice-President of Gun Owners Foundation.  Many of its sentiments have been expressed on this forum, with a few points etc. that have not (that I can recall).


Very good article.  I thought the following quotes were interesting.


"Let us consider also that the Sixth Commandment tells us "Thou shall not murder." In the chapters following, God gave to Moses many of the situations which require a death penalty. God clearly has not told us never to kill. He has told us not to murder, which means we are not to take an innocent life. Consider also that the civil magistrate is to be a terror to those who practice evil. This passage does not in any way imply that the role of law enforcement is to prevent crimes or to protect individuals from criminals. The magistrate is a minister to serve as "an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil" (Romans 13:4).

This point is reflected in the legal doctrine of the United States. Repeatedly, courts have held that the government has no responsibility to provide individual security. One case (Bowers v. DeVito) put it this way: "there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered.""


So what he's saying is that protection from imminent attack is not the intended purpose of the State, but the Individual.  The State is punishing after the fact.  By saying "there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered"  the court seems to have said that it's not necessarily the Police Department's job to prevent crime, but to punish it.  If you get attacked, it's YOUR job to protect yourself.  Very interesting.  Never heard it put that way.  


"Resisting an attack is not to be confused with taking vengeance which is the exclusive domain of God (Romans 12:19). This has been delegated to the civil magistrate, who, as we read in Romans 13:4, "is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."


Private vengeance means one would stalk down a criminal after one's life is no longer in danger as opposed to defending oneself during an attack."


Hmmm.  Is this right?  By this definition,  defending others against systematic, ongoing attacks (as Scott Roeder claimed to have done) would fall under private vengeance.  He killed Tiller on Sunday knowing that Tiller would not be performing abortions until the next day.  Roeder, himself, was never in any danger, and no babies were in immediate danger until the next day.  


Brandon, you asked, "How do we explain Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." This is the beauty of the gospel. God didn't die for us because of our intrinic value as members of the human race. He died for us while we were still sinners, ungodly, His enemies. Yes, the blood of Jesus was shed for all the sins of all mankind. He died "once for all." His sacrifice was for "the whole world." But it was not because of our value; it was because of His love. If someone is trying to kill me, he doesn't have value to me. He is a liability to me, worth "less than nothing" to put it in God's words. Yet, I can choose to love him and make a plan to redeem him if I want to. That's what God did. If we take the position that God's love shows that we have value, then we're proposing that God loves us because of our value. But that's not the nature of agape. The love of God does not require any motivation. It is entirely spontaneous. It flows out of Him toward us on the sole basis that "God is love."  

Bro. Mike, I have read many times, in various places, (can't remember the sources) that it is NOT the job of the police to protect the citizens, but to enforce the code.

David Huston said:

This is the beauty of the gospel. God didn't die for us because of our intrinic value as members of the human race. He died for us while we were still sinners, ungodly, His enemies.

This statement hinges upon the use of the word 'intrinsic' and likewise takes us right to the heart of the matter. Websters defines intrinsic as - belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing. What we have then is a dual definition; a definition with two parts. Note, these are not alternate definitions, but two parts of the same definition. From this then, constitution is defined as - the physical makeup of the individual especially with respect to the health, strength, and appearance of the body. Do we have 'intrinsic' value according to our physical makeup? Because we're pretty? Because we're strong? No. In the physical sense we are glorified dirt. 'Fear not them which kill the body.' 'Bodily exercise profiteth little.' 'From the dust we were formed and to the dust we will return.' Limited relative value.

But, the other half of the definition, our 'essential nature', defined as our 'original or natural condition', that's another story. Hebrews 2:7-8 does a pretty good job describing this:

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. 

If we take the position that God's love shows that we have value, then we're proposing that God loves us because of our value. 

Absolutely God loves us because of our value! He created us with value! If we had no value He wouldn't have created us in the manner in which He did and He certainly wouldn't have gone through all of the trouble to suffer and die for us. We would've just been another animal. But instead, we were created:

-In His image

-A little lower than the angels

-Crowned with glory and honour

-Set over the works of His hands

-Given dominion over all of creation

We don't have any value by our constitutional makeup and we have no authoritative grounds to stand before Him in defense of self, yet we have ascribed value through our 'essential nature', that is, by what He created us to be, according to His will and purpose, and now more so by His grace. This would include the relational value that we were created for, as 1 Samuel 16:7 says, "...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." He ascribes value to us not because of our outward or physical makeup, which is essentially similar to the rest of creation (skin, bones, blood, etc), but because of our unique inward makeup, spiritual beings, created to love and be loved, commune, relate, worship. 

Then, beyond this basic value of all mankind, God ascribes a greater or deeper love, as in the case of David, based upon the conditions of our hearts and our obedience and submission to Him. We can certainly relate to this through our experiences with our own children. While we must be careful comparing our love for our children to His love for us, there is an essential similarity. There is a baseline love that we have for them all the time, but don't tell me our feelings of love towards them are the same when they are standing in stubborn defiance refusing to pick up their toys, as when they obediently do what we've asked and our hearts glow. But if there wasn't a baseline love or value that He has for all mankind, then He would never ask the righteous to die for the unrighteous.

Brandon Steinke said:

[... lots of stuff ...]


Great post Brandon.  Here's some more:


Psa 139:13-18 KJV For thou hast possessed [i.e., "created"] my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. {14} I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. {15} My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. {16} Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. {17} How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! {18} If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.


Ecc 7:29 KJV Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

[BTW, these serve to refute to common interpretation of Psa 51:5.]


Amen. Great stuff!

You guys are missing what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that there's anything lacking in God's love for man or in the marvelous creation that man is. My only point has to do with value. Isaiah said that "All flesh is grass, and all its loveliness is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades, because the breath of the LORD blows upon it; surely the people are grass" (40:6-7) and "Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket, and are counted as the small dust on the scales; Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing. And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before Him are as nothing, and they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless" (40:15-17). I maintain that the Bible teaches that it is only the received love of God that gives us value. When a person loses something of value, he grieves, which is an emotion God placed within us to enable us to deal with loss. But there is no indication in the Bible that God will grieve at all when the masses of humanity are cast into the lake of fire. This is because God will not be diminished one bit. He will have lost nothing of value. But He will have gained a bride, which He purchased with His own blood. No higher price could have been paid.

The Ten Commandments, Killing and Murder: A Detailed Commetary by Rabbi Dovid Bendory

Finally got clarity on this.  To understand this issue you have to understand the concept of Biblical "jurisdictions": i.e., the Individual, the Family, the Church, and the State.

So the logic goes:

  • Life begins at conception, so abortion is murder.
  • We are authorized to use lethal force to protect ourselves, our family, and bystanders from murder or bodily harm.
  • Ergo, we are authorized to use lethal force to prevent abortions.

Generally, only the State has the authority under God to execute capital punishment.  The Individual can defend himself, his family and maybe others in an emergency situation (e.g., the thief breaking up at night).  

But the guy who seeks out the abortion clinic and executes the abortion doctor is not acting in his jurisdiction.  He has invaded the jurisdiction of the State.  Only the State has this authority -- it was never given to any other social institution.  And just because one social institution is not fulfilling its responsibilities does not mean that another social institution is authorized to perform those on its behalf.  Most of our social issues can be described in terms of jurisdictional violations.

So that pretty much resolves the issue for me by giving a solid Biblical reason why we should not kill abortionists.

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