Your position on full-body scanners?

[David Huston]

In light of the terrorist threat, what should the Christian position be concerning the use of these full-body scanners at airports and elsewhere? How do we maintain consistency in our values yet protect ourselves as best as possible from terrorism?

[tom]

LOL you should have kept on my brother.The word says that we are in the world but not of the world.Now if i was in a foreign country (lets say Iran lol) and they passed a law that i didn't like, i would not be able to socially or politically do much about it.But the word tells us:1 Peter 2:11-13 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.I think that's how we are to live here.We are strangers and pilgrims. Lets not forget our position in heaven; it's much more important than our position here on earth.

;Donnie Gillum said:

HI Tom,

I think we are coming to the conclusion that all these things are indeed "forcing" us to lean upon the Lord and learn to trust Him - more! It could come to the point that we are forced at gun-point to undergo full body scams (er...I mean scans LOL!) at other checkpoint areas besides airports. No, this is NOT far-fetched either. They are already doing gun-point medicine so to speak. Remember the teenage boy in the news that didn't want to take chemo? Well the judge "ordered" it done anyway. We ARE loosing more and more liberties regardless what anyone thinks about conspiracy theories, or facts for that matter. As for me, I can feel myself looking to God more and more for answers, and if they aren't coming, knowing I'm gonna have to trust Him anyway.

Yes, it is a tough decision whether to speak up, take a stand etc.. I've had to draw the line in the sand and take action that I felt was appropriate - for me. Some are decisions I'm real sure very few apostolics would make. Yet, there are at the same time, others who have done the same on issues that I may balk at. You said it, Brother - tough decisions. That's one reason it's good to do as Bro. Dave has done, and ask others. I'll quit here, since it seems my response should have been on the forum post of "How Invovled Are We To Get" instead. LOL!

[Donnie Gillum]

Tom, Your admonition of remembering the importance of our real citizenship is very good, and very well received. Thank you and I do try to keep it in mind.

I cannot help but wonder,though, if we are expected of God to just go belly-up, for any and all reasons, for those in authority – just because they are in authority. Is there ever a time, and just cause in God’s sight to do or say something?

Ever notice one of the purposes of God-ordained government? How about this from the verses you’ve supplied: Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

And these:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

To me, this speaks one of the true purposes of government – to punish evildoers and praise them that do well. Astonishing isn’t it – what God ordained government is supposed to do! Wonder how many, who have paid any decent attention, can honestly say they feel our government is on top of it when it comes to punishing the wicked and praising the good? As an old worldly song says, “I feel a bad moon rising”.

When it becomes obvious that government is abusing its God-ordained authority, it doesn’t take a Harvard professor to figure out that something is wrong – terribly wrong! And when a government is constantly proving that it cannot be believed, or trusted, it is usually the righteous who are destined to suffer most – When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. (Pro 29:2). It seems, to me, that most of the Americans I meet are definitely mourning the deplorable and sickening state of our present system. At least to me, our government has shown that it has definitely, and purposefully overstepped its God-given boundaries and left off it’s God-given duties.

Granted, there may be a short period of time when the righteous can courteously offer, or seek, an alternative to this virtual full-body exposure (as did the Hebrew children about the government mandated diet). But I fear it appears it will not be long before most, or all, of these supposed “safety features” will become pig-headed “requirements” as King Nebuchadnezzar’s did. If so, morals or no morals, it’s a do or die situation.

What has all this have to do with this forum topic? Health and moral issues aside, for the time being, this body scam (er…excuse me again – scan) just may be one of the many “feelers”, or a checking of the American pulse, to see if the American public can successfully ratcheted down yet. If they feel the time is ripe, I fear this body-scan will then appear insignificant to what will be required later. If, and when, it comes to that, we have examples in Heb. 11 that lets us know that we are not the first to refuse (for God’s sake) and die. Many, I’m sure will not agree, but that’s what I feel is a major issue behind the body-scan.

(Again, this response probably should have been in the "How Involved Are We To Get" forum. Oh well...LOL!)

[tom]

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. The word untoward means warped(like our new government) crooked.We are not to go Belly-up at all my brother, our weapon is still prayer.If the Lord opens a door for us to speak on a matter, by all means speak.I just feel that the only way righteousness will rein is when Jesus comes,2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The things that are happening now are the sign of times.And yes the people are dismayed but we aren't,Deuteronomy 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.This is our time to do the lords work,1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.Or like Paul when he was about to go to Jerusalem Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Benjamin franklin i think said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Do you think this applies to us Christians? Can we fight for our liberty without sacrificing our peace? I don'nt know :James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Donnie Gillum said:

Tom, Your admonition of remembering the importance of our real citizenship is very good, and very well received. Thank you and I do try to keep it in mind.

I cannot help but wonder,though, if we are expected of God to just go belly-up, for any and all reasons, for those in authority – just because they are in authority. Is there ever a time, and just cause in God’s sight to do or say something?

Ever notice one of the purposes of God-ordained government? How about this from the verses you’ve supplied: Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

And these:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

To me, this speaks one of the true purposes of government – to punish evildoers and praise them that do well. Astonishing isn’t it – what God ordained government is supposed to do! Wonder how many, who have paid any decent attention, can honestly say they feel our government is on top of it when it comes to punishing the wicked and praising the good? As an old worldly song says, “I feel a bad moon rising”.

When it becomes obvious that government is abusing its God-ordained authority, it doesn’t take a Harvard professor to figure out that something is wrong – terribly wrong! And when a government is constantly proving that it cannot be believed, or trusted, it is usually the righteous who are destined to suffer most – When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. (Pro 29:2). It seems, to me, that most of the Americans I meet are definitely mourning the deplorable and sickening state of our present system. At least to me, our government has shown that it has definitely, and purposefully overstepped its God-given boundaries and left off it’s God-given duties.

Granted, there may be a short period of time when the righteous can courteously offer, or seek, an alternative to this virtual full-body exposure (as did the Hebrew children about the government mandated diet). But I fear it appears it will not be long before most, or all, of these supposed “safety features” will become pig-headed “requirements” as King Nebuchadnezzar’s did. If so, morals or no morals, it’s a do or die situation.

What has all this have to do with this forum topic? Health and moral issues aside, for the time being, this body scam (er…excuse me again – scan) just may be one of the many “feelers”, or a checking of the American pulse, to see if the American public can successfully ratcheted down yet. If they feel the time is ripe, I fear this body-scan will then appear insignificant to what will be required later. If, and when, it comes to that, we have examples in Heb. 11 that lets us know that we are not the first to refuse (for God’s sake) and die. Many, I’m sure will not agree, but that’s what I feel is a major issue behind the body-scan.

(Again, this response probably should have been in the "How Involved Are We To Get" forum. Oh well...LOL!)

[Donnie Gillum]

Good words, Tom...very good.

[Donnie Gillum]

This is not only a big topic here on the Network, but other arenas as well. Here is an excerpt from the lastest Campaign for Libery (Ron Paul) e-newsletter:

It’s a peeping tom’s dream, and a nightmare for those of us who believe in the great American principles of liberty, restrained government, and privacy.

Unless we stop this outrage, TSA agents will be snooping at the undergarments of such “threats” as American kids, grandmothers, and grandfathers. And if you or they refuse? You will be physically searched by TSA employees just like a criminal after being arrested.

The TSA’s dirty little secret is the agency has been pushing (see this link: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=488 )for full-body imaging since 2002 and even introduced the technology at a handful of airports in 2007—without ensuring that passengers knew they were being watched in this manner. (Emp. Mine -DG)

As Congressman Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) said, “Nobody needs to see my wife and kids naked to secure an airplane.”…

Last year, Campaign for Liberty Director of Development Steve Bierfeldt sued the TSA for detaining him for carrying cash. Because Steve so strongly stood up to them, the TSA backed down from its unconstitutional searches of passengers’ non-terrorism-related property.

But such victories for liberty are rare in today’s America and must be fought for by a vigilant public jealous of its liberty. [End of excerpt]

Wonder what kind of people will apply for the position of monitoring the scanner?

[tom]

Seeing that this is such a hot topic among the brothers,here is my spin; why not immediately implement new software that would put a image over the privates or maybe over the person itself, except for objects that can be concealed? Its all computer imaging anyway right? everyone would have a elmer j fudd image lol

Donnie Gillum said:

This is not only a big topic here on the Network, but other arenas as well. Here is an excerpt from the lastest Campaign for Libery (Ron Paul) e-newsletter:

It’s a peeping tom’s dream, and a nightmare for those of us who believe in the great American principles of liberty, restrained government, and privacy.

Unless we stop this outrage, TSA agents will be snooping at the undergarments of such “threats” as American kids, grandmothers, and grandfathers. And if you or they refuse? You will be physically searched by TSA employees just like a criminal after being arrested.

The TSA’s dirty little secret is the agency has been pushing (see this link: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=488 )for full-body imaging since 2002 and even introduced the technology at a handful of airports in 2007—without ensuring that passengers knew they were being watched in this manner. (Emp. Mine -DG)

As Congressman Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) said, “Nobody needs to see my wife and kids naked to secure an airplane.”…

Last year, Campaign for Liberty Director of Development Steve Bierfeldt sued the TSA for detaining him for carrying cash. Because Steve so strongly stood up to them, the TSA backed down from its unconstitutional searches of passengers’ non-terrorism-related property.

But such victories for liberty are rare in today’s America and must be fought for by a vigilant public jealous of its liberty. [End of excerpt]

Wonder what kind of people will apply for the position of monitoring the scanner?

[Donnie Gillum]

Could cause a big argument over which image one wants...you know, Popeye, Bugs Bunny, Bluto...LOL!

[tom]

LOL i like bluto myself. We're(this country) in a mess. Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Donnie Gillum said:

Could cause a big argument over which image one wants...you know, Popeye, Bugs Bunny, Bluto...LOL!

[Donnie Gillum]

You know, Brother, I suppose maybe this whole topic can be summed up in at least two points. While it is good to know how others feel about it and how they think they may react, at least this much seems certain:

1) each individual is going to have to decide how they handle the body-scan themselves when faced with it. And...

2) it is making us aware that we may be very near to really being put to the test and each individual is going to have to actually trust God without knowing outcomes.

May we be wise on the first one, and successful on the second one.

[tom]

Amen to that.Well said

Donnie Gillum said:

You know, Brother, I suppose maybe this whole topic can be summed up in at least two points. While it is good to know how others feel about it and how they think they may react, at least this much seems certain:

1) each individual is going to have to decide how they handle the body-scan themselves when faced with it. And...

2) it is making us aware that we may be very near to really being put to the test and each individual is going to have to actually trust God without knowing outcomes.

May we be wise on the first one, and successful on the second one.

[David Huston]

Brothers and sisters, my daughter just sent me the follwoing report. I think this resolves all of our concerns. Please read.

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) In what some in the White House are calling a "win/win" solution to the nation's airport security and health care reform problems, starting next month U. S. airports will begin conducting full body scans that will double as annual physical checkups.

President Obama announced the breakthrough solution, telling reporters, "With this all-purpose exam, we will be able to find everything from a hidden weapon to a spot on your lung."

After scanning a passenger, Mr. Obama said, "We will either give you a clean bill of health or wrestle you to the ground."

The President added that instituting the body scan/checkup could ward off some terrorists right from the start, "because a lot of them will balk at the $25 co-pay."

But according to Davis Logsdon, who studies terrorism and health care reform at the University of Minnesota, the body scans may attract more terrorists than they deter: "If there's one complaint that terrorists have about al-Qaeda it's that they have lousy benefits."

[tom]

Praise the Lord, my Brother,two point to consider, one the Hebrew midwifes were government employees (in today's terms) and they lied.Second they feared God.Possibly or rather probably knowing the prophesy concerning the coming messiah.We are not in such a situation today.I do like this Scripture though: 1 Peter 2:19-22 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.What if our liberties are taken away? this has already been told us 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. What are we really holding on to? 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven If we do all we can or if we do nothing, the outcome in the end will still be the same Your passage in 1cor has a broad application in today's world. slavery was rampant during the time of Paul's writing.I think he was writing more on physical slavery than bondage across the board

Glen Flanagan said:

Brothers,

I'd like to add a few thoughts for consideration. It is true that in scripture we are admonished to submit ourselves to higher authority for all authority is of God, even those with evil intent. However, I believe that scripture also shows us that we must at times "draw the line".

I would like to offer for consideration the midwives of Israel during the tribulation by Egypt's Pharaoh

Exodus 1: 15-21
15And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
16And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
17But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
18And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
19And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
20Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
21And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

Pharaoh, who's word was law, ordered the deaths of the Hebrew male children. This was an authority put in place by God, the very authorities we are told to submit ourselves to. The Hebrew midwives disobeyed that law and that leader. God did not require them to submit to the punishments for disobeying the law of that day, but He rewarded them.

There are times when we must take a stand against the "rulers" and the "laws" of the day. We still live an a country where, so far, we can do that peacefully, with lobbying, voting, etc. If our liberties continue to erode, we will be faced with situations similar to that of the Hebrew Midwives.

Certainly submit yourselves to the laws, as long as they don't require you to transgress against God. But certainly also use your God given, U.S. Constitution supported liberties to prevent the laws from becoming oppressive as long as you possibly can.

Another verse to consider is 1 Corinthians 7:21
21Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.

I know some believe this does not mean that we should take advantage of opportunities to become free of oppression. But many, myself included, firmly believe this passage means exactly that. In 1 Cor 7:20-22 I believe we are told to use whatever state we are in to the Glory of God, however, if we have the opportunity to become free from man's bondage, then use it.

Just a few thoughts and scriptures to consider.

Blessings.