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Brethren,

Greetings in the Name of Jesus!  I would like to initiate a discussion concerning an aspect of ministerial ethics.  The basis of the discussion is summarized in the following series of questions:

  1. What are your practices related to saints moving from one assembly to another?
  2. When someone visits your assembly from another local Apostolic church for the first time, how do you handle that?  Do you call their pastor(s)?
  3. If someone begins attending your services regularly, do you ask them why they have moved churches?
  4. If someone expresses that they have left the other Apostolic church and now call your assembly home, do you press the question of why they changed?
  5. When a saint moves to your congregation, do request or require a letter of transfer from their other church body?
  6. What if the other pastor(s) says that they left in an inappropriate way, or they caused turmoil in the process of leaving, or left because the church leadership was in the process of disciplining them?  Would you require them to return and reconcile before joining you?  Would you require a release from the previous assembly?
  7. What about when you find that out that someone from your assembly has begun to attend elsewhere?  Do you contact that individual, or the pastor(s) of the assembly, or do you just let it go?
  8. Can anyone speak to what the standard is in the UPC for such matters or what is taught concerning this at Apostolic bible schools?

Please feel free to share your thoughts, practices or some stories.  I think that this is an important issue for the body as a whole and I would like to hear what other pastors have to say about this.

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1. What are your practices related to saints moving from one assembly to another?

It all depends on why. When someone moves into our area and wants to become a part of our assembly, we sit down with him and review our doctrinal distinctives (since all apostolic churches do not have the same doctrines). We tell the person that even though were are open to new ideas, we do not plan on changing our views just to accommodate him. We therefore expect new people to either agree with us or keep their differences to themselves. We also suggest he visit the other assemblies in the area before making a final decision about becoming part of our assembly. If a person is simply transferring to ours from another assembly in our area, we require him to set up a meeting with us and the pastor of the assembly they are leaving so we call all discuss his reasons for changing.

2. When someone visits your assembly from another local Apostolic church for the first time, how do you handle that? Do you call their pastor(s)?

If someone is visiting from another assembly in our area, we ask the person if his pastor knows he is visiting us. We then ask why he is here. We let him know that we will be contacting the pastor within the next 24 hours to let him know he was in our service.

3. If someone begins attending your services regularly, do you ask them why they have moved churches?

Yes. We do not consider the decision to change assemblies to be a frivolous matter, although some people seem to treat it that way.

4. If someone expresses that they have left the other Apostolic church and now call your assembly home, do you press the question of why they changed?

Yes. We insist on a meeting with the "former" pastor.

5. When a saint moves to your congregation, do request or require a letter of transfer from their other church body?

Not necessarily. We sometimes call the pastor of the former church to see what they can tell us about the person. I assume you mean when they have moved from another part of the country.

6. What if the other pastor(s) says that they left in an inappropriate way, or they caused turmoil in the process of leaving, or left because the church leadership was in the process of disciplining them? Would you require them to return and reconcile before joining you? Would you require a release from the previous assembly?

If the church is nearby and the person hasn’t moved from another area, then absolutely yes. They must be reconciled at the other assembly before we will accept them at ours.

7. What about when you find that out that someone from your assembly has begun to attend elsewhere? Do you contact that individual, or the pastor(s) of the assembly, or do you just let it go?

If they have left our assembly without telling us, we may contact them and ask what’s going on. We always ask them what they want us to tell the rest of the church about why they have left us. Usually they won’t give us a reason. We usually contact the other pastor, but we rarely get very much cooperation, so we end up just letting it go. After all, if a person doesn’t want to be part of our assembly, then we usually don’t want them to be either.

8. Can anyone speak to what the standard is in the UPC for such matters or what is taught concerning this at Apostolic bible schools?

I don’t think there is any uniform policy within the UPCI. Many will say that you shouldn’t accept a person without a letter of transfer, but most pastors and people find a way around that. I once gave a pastor a letter that said, "This letter covers anyone who has recently transferred from our assembly to yours and anyone who ever will in the future." I have a recoding of Bro. David Bernard teaching on this subject. If everyone followed what he says, it would eliminate a lot of problems and be a great benefit to the people who are transferring churches. I will get this recording posted on the Glorious Church website Audio Library asap.

For anyone who is interested, you can listen to Bro. David Bernard's excellent teaching on ministerial ethics by going to www.GloriousChurch.com. Click the tab for Apostolic Free Library, then click the Audio Libaray tab, then the Archive function. You should be able to easily find the recording, which is titled Ministerial Ethics. You can listen on your computer or burn it onto a CD.

Just wanted to point something out here.  This problem is largely caused by the modern practice of having more than one  local church per city.  There is no evidence of more than one church per city in the NT and quite a bit of implication that there was only one.  Given that, they didn't have these problems back then.  The only situation they would have had is someone moving from one city to another, which is a normal expectation.  

The scriptures tell us the way things ought to be.  They do not tell us how to deal with every bad situation we manage to get ourselves into.

I actually don't have much of a problem with folks moving around.  I tend to think that the evil of moving around is mostly a matter of not establishing close relationships where you can minister and be ministered to and be held accountable.  Where people know you and know you well. There isn't really much in the way of close relationships in "grid church".   Not like home meetings, anyway.  I am a member of both a grid church and a decade-old home Bible study group composed of folks from various local Oneness churches.  If I had to chose, I would drop the grid church fast.  I'm sure that Pastors view things much differently.  In the home Bible study, they had to make a rule that "No Pastors Are Allowed".  This is because all the Pastors involved would get jealous of another Pastor "stealing sheep" and shut down the Bible study (none of the Pastors of these folks have even tried to attend even one meeting in over 10 years).  It's a very sad situation.  UPCI Pastors protecting their capital assetts and defending their marketing territory.  The meeting moves from house to house each week and is always packed.  It's one of those things that is often not over until well after midnight.  Good stuff.

I was one of those shifting saints for a couple of years.  Left one congregation on good terms with a glowing (and quite overdone) letter of recommendation.  Stayed at the new place for 2 years.  Left there on very bad terms.  The place was a mess.  They decided that I wasn't saved and that I shouldn't minister "on the platform" anymore (music, teaching, etc).   How can you hang around where the leadership thinks you're lost?  I don't have real bad feelings toward them (other than pity) -- BUT, I am glad that I am not reconciled with them.  Hope I never am (unless they change their ways).  Anyway, I'm with a better group of folks now.  I'm quite sure that the old place would have never given me a good reference.  I'm glad the new place didn't require one!

Mike, what is a "grid church"?

David Huston said:

Mike, what is a "grid church"?

 

Yes.  I had to ask the first time I heard the term...   A Pastor's teenage son explained it to me.  But, I've heard it a few times since then.  

He said that they had three kinds of church: home church, circle church, and grid church.  

His favorite was home church where people met in someone's home.  

Circle church, his second favorite, was on Wednesday night when they put all the chairs in a circle to promote group participation.  

Grid church, his least favorite, was on Sunday when they arranged the chairs in rows, like grid.  "You occupy your place in the grid and stare at the back of someone's head."

 

;)



Well, you know what the "homesteading" movement says: Get off the grid!  :)


If you have 100 people in a room that's about 32 by 40, is there some other way to arrange the chairs that would diminish the negativity of "the grid"?  

First, thank you all for participating in this thread.  It is an important subject to overseers.

BrDavid – Thank you for your input.  I will listen to the audio.

BrMikeP - Remove opener…engage can...crank until you see worms.

 Even though the church that tossed you was a mess and you left on bad terms, there still should have been some correspondence or communication from one pastor to the next.  In your case it might have looked like this:

“Dear Unfortunate Overseer.  Thank you for taking Mike off our hands.  Here is his report card - Well-meaning.  Doctrinally-confused.  Divisive.  Bearded.  Difficulty managing his appetite at church fellowships.  Kids are rug rats.  I don’t like his choice of cars.  Frequents a hippie house church.  I recommend you size him up quick and move him along shortly thereafter.”

I have had two transfers with negative commendations (not quite as bad as yours).  Both have turned out wonderfully.  Pastors aren’t always correct in their evaluations and perceptions.  But let’s give them some credit.  At a minimum, the pastors retain their relationships and show respect for one another and for the work’s sake.  And give honor to the calling before the saints. And…sometimes there is good insight.

As for Worm Can 2, the hippie house church, (it probably deserves its own thread) I am surprised at you.  Surprised that you would have the audacity to admit to a group of believers who espouse multiple/collegial eldership that you are part of a “church” that has Zero Pastors!!!  Hmm…What shall we call this concept/movement…Absent Eldership…Elderless Eldership…Modalistic Monarchian Anarchians?  What’s the doctrine here?  I am surprised that a bible-thumping bible student from the bible belt would be in a bible study that appears to ignore bible verses – Eph 4:11-16.  You got some ‘splainin to do.  Please begin.

In abiding love…David

You're right.  Most of this should not be here in this thread.  Sorry.

However, if I contribute much more to this topic, my cynicism will either offend or depress people.

 

<A friendly wave to Bro Fazier!>

 

GRID CHURCH.

The arrangement of the chairs doesn't matter. The problem is that most of the time you spend with folks involves looking at the back of their head. I've been at the new congregation for almost a year now and I can probably count on both hands the number of people's names I know. It's the same with just about any church you go to that doesn't have "small group" type meetings. I was in a small stagnant congregation for nearly 20 years and I knew everyone's name, but didn't really know them as well as I know the Hippie Bible Study folks after a little more than 2 years. Aside from church dinners every now and then, for most folks it's "go to church, sit in the grid, go home". If the building and the Pastor were blown away by a tornado, the church would fall apart. The Hippie Bible Study would not fall apart -- even if it's informal leadership were gone. I have a feeling that if the Carlisle building and the Carlisle elders were blown away by a tornado, that your home groups would continue to meet. In the grid church, we are not "a people" ... not an "organism". We are an organization of disconnected individuals. That's the problem with grid church. I'm not saying that there is not a place for it -- just that if that's all there is, it's not healthy.

 

WORM CAN #1: Shifting Sheep Experiences.

I have met very few Pastors with the backbone to write such a letter as the one you proposed. I enjoyed reading it though! However, I dispute the part about my children – they are angels! ;)

Actually, now that I think about it, I DID get a recommendation when I started going to the new church. It was from the original Pastor that I left on good terms with -- not the messed up church. The new Pastor called the old Pastor and talked with his wife since her husband was out of town. It was evidently another overdone glowing recommendation. BTW the original Pastor I left on good terms with is one of my closest friends and still is, but sadly he had to move away out of state to find a job. When we left his church, we still continued to meet with each other for breakfast once a week. However, his wife took it real hard when we left. It wasn't so much because we left the church, but somehow that we had abandoned her. It is as if we died somehow. She was a puddle of tears for a long time. She couldn't speak to us for over a year. Not that she was angry -- just badly hurt somehow. Very sad. All is well now.

 

WORM CAN #2: Hippie Home Church Allegations

Cans O' Worms are my specialty! However, I sometimes end up eating them with a side dish of my own feet. Hopefully feet are not on the menu this time. I'll creep a little further out on this limb and defend myself a bit -- do some 'splainin'.

To start with, I never called the Friday night Hippie Bible Study a "church". It is not a church in any formal sense – only in a “organic” sense, perhaps. For one, it has no formally recognized Elders. They do not even think of themselves as a church – just a Bible Study called the “BFF” (Bible, Food, and Fellowship). [However, for a few months during the year or so I was “church-less”, we had Sunday morning services in my own house with just my family. During this time, the Hippie Bible Study served as our "congregation". In our home services, the kids played piano, I played guitar, we all sang, prayed, and I led a Bible study. The service took a couple of hours and was satisfying, but I knew better to think that this should be a permanent solution.] BUT, the Hippie Bible Study DOES have three informal "de facto" leaders, though. But VERY informally. So informal that I'm not sure that most folks would think that we have leaders -- even the leaders themselves. But some of the ones that have been attending for a long time have spoken of them as the leaders. And, each of these informal leaders is a man, and as far as I can tell, each meets the qualifications given for an Elder. It's very interesting.

The new church congregation is a standard, modern, single-Pastor, grid-only church -- no small group meetings at all. I play guitar and sing every service and teach on Wednesday nights. My wife teaches a Sunday school class. We forgo Sunday night service (leaving them without a guitar player) and attend the Friday night Hippie Bible Study instead. We decided that doing both took too much time away from our already busy family life.

So, on one hand, you have the Hippie Bible Study with a strong and Biblical social structure (for lack of a better term), but that is lacking in formal leadership – but, at least, there is more than one "de facto" male leader. And, on the other hand, you have the Single Pastor grid-only church that has unbiblical formal leadership and a deficient social structure, but is nevertheless enjoyable, edifying, and appreciative of our contributions.

So, which one is better? Do you go for doctrinal purity and choose the Single-Pastor, Grid-Only Church is better because it at least has 1 Pastor? Or do you go the practical route and choose the Hippie Bible Study because it is more spiritually edifying? Which one is more Biblical anyway?

Rather than pick the lesser of two evils, we picked both.

Greetings Brothers.

If I may interject myself into this discussion.

In reading through this thread I had a feeling that your bible study group did indeed have leaders if even so un-named or untitled, which you then confirmed. It is rare and almost impossible for a group of any kind to form and sustain with out leadership of some kind. With this being said, and strictly referring to the aspect of official or unofficial leadership, I do not see a problem with it. I do not believe it will be a point of contention on judgement day, that the Lord would say, "I condemn you. You never officially appointed your elders!" If they are acting as such, and the body is respecting as such, and it is functioning well, then I don't see a pressing need to stir the pot.

Now as to what the rest of the aspects of this 'bible study' group are or what if any are the doctrinal positions of this group, that is a whole 'nother matter and not really in need of discussion here. Those issues are much simpler: do they hold to the true revelation of the Word of God and it's foundational truths or is it more 'each to his own' and a 'greek' style meeting, where the purpose is more for the exercise and enjoyment of discussion and fellowship than it is for the growth of the body and the pursuit of truth.

In either case, the single pastor assembly or the bible study, or even your own families home church, if they are the best that you have available in your area and you're not uncomfortable that they are negatively effecting or influencing yourself or your family, and it is not an option to begin a work of your own, then make the best of it as you continue to search out and pursue something better. My biggest concern would be the possibility of negative, unscriptural influence upon my family, in which case, the best thing to do might be to just have church at home and try to grow and reach out from there. You know we like to believe we can possibly have a positive influence on others, and one on one, your chances may be favorable, but with a larger group, slim. When you rub a clean towel against a chunk of coal, the towel never comes out ahead. Maybe a few pieces of lint on the coal from the towel, having very little effect on the coal, but a big black mark on the towel from the coal, leaving it much worse for the wear.

It just comes down to how much dog poop we'll tolerate in our brownies. If you've never heard that one, remind me and I'll explain.

Can't blame ya one bit for any cynicism if that is all you've got in your area within reasonable distance. But be encouraged and have hope and know that there are better situations out there. Here in Janesville we are not perfect by any means and are actually in the midst of some transitioning currently, but we have a little bit of each. We are an Elder led assembly and we have home church mid-week, as well as teaching and practicing family church, and on Sunday mornings we have adult Sunday school (Bible study) where we concentrate on doctrinal and foundational teachings and we do this in a half circle where we encourage participation and questions. Then following this we have our worship service a la 'grid style' and actually have a very personal and friendly church. Visitors are always greeted by multiple individuals and we encourage relational integration by usually taking a minute following worship and before the preaching to have everyone leave their seats and greet one another or those around them. We actually would prefer to not utilize the grid set-up but are currently tied to it because we don't own the building and the pews are fastened to the floor. :) 

We actually just had a similar discussion the other night at our elder meeting, and I had commented at one point that, were something to happen to our assembly - if it were to dissolve, nothing would change as far as our family's position or practices, we would continue to have church in our home and reach out to any other like-minded believers that would care to join us. I may be preaching to the choir here, but this would paint the difference between organic and synthetic. You take a seed from the organic and throw it in the soil and it will grow, because there's life in it. You take a seed from the synthetic and throw it in the ground and it will rot. Lifeless.

-Brandon

Brandon Steinke said:

In reading through this thread I had a feeling that your bible study group did indeed have leaders if even so un-named or untitled, which you then confirmed. It is rare and almost impossible for a group of any kind to form and sustain with out leadership of some kind. With this being said, and strictly referring to the aspect of official or unofficial leadership, I do not see a problem with it. I do not believe it will be a point of contention on judgement day, that the Lord would say, "I condemn you. You never officially appointed your elders!" If they are acting as such, and the body is respecting as such, and it is functioning well, then I don't see a pressing need to stir the pot.

 

The de facto leaders are not acting as Elders and they are not respected as such.  It's just a weekly Bible study.  That's all.  

Brandon Steinke said:

Now as to what the rest of the aspects of this 'bible study' group are or what if any are the doctrinal positions of this group, that is a whole 'nother matter and not really in need of discussion here. Those issues are much simpler: do they hold to the true revelation of the Word of God and it's foundational truths or is it more 'each to his own' and a 'greek' style meeting, where the purpose is more for the exercise and enjoyment of discussion and fellowship than it is for the growth of the body and the pursuit of truth.

 

We meet for food, fellowship, Bible study/discussion (we work through whole books 1 chapter per week), and discussion of whatever issues folks feel they need to talk about in the midst of fellowship and Bible study.  Yes, there is a desire to grow and pursue truth.  There are no "doctrines of this group" because it's not a formal enough situation to have stated doctrines.    Given this and the fact that there is no formal authority structure, it's pretty much a "each to his own" type of meeting.  Although the regulars are all Oneness Pentecostals, there are frequently visitors who are not.  

 

No formal doctrinal statement.  No formal authority structure.  Not a church in any formal sense.  Just a friendly, informal, long standing, regularly meeting, Oneness Pentecostal Bible study group.  Something that I would think Pastors would encourage, not forbid.

 

We do eat a lot of very tasty, but not-so-healthy food, including a lot of sweets.  But this is not mandatory (unless you are at the Gabre house, because they are Ethiopian and will try to stuff as much food down you as they can.)

 

It's funny, about the time you said:

Just a friendly, informal, long standing, regularly meeting, Oneness Pentecostal Bible study group.

 

I thought to myself, "Well, no harm in that." And then I read your next line:

Something that I would think Pastors would encourage, not forbid.

Thank you for the clarifications you've added through your response. I think I can see it for what it is now. Sounds to me like it's just a friendly, informal, long standing, regularly meeting, Oneness Pentecostal Bible study group. :)

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