Genesis 3:16

[Jim Moses]

In a recent bible study I had a response that I have not heard before, and wondered what you guys think.

In Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 

When I cover this I have said that Eve may have had children before the curse, since from now on there would be multiplied sorrow, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, that she would know or have experienced the difference.I would base this on the serpent being upright prior to the cure and now on his belly. The man now working by the sweat of his brow and the earth would now bring forth thorns & thistles.

The question came back, "Then were the children prior to the expulsion from the Garden cursed? So to to say that there were children before the curse is an assumption."  I agreed that it was an assumption, but based on Adam & the earth who are described as experiencing a "before and after."

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

[Michael V. Frazier]

For children to have been born to Adam and Eve before the Fall would essentially make the concept of original sin irrelevant. One of the high points of Paul's theology was the principle concept that "in Adam all die" and that Adam was the first man--earthy, that is, in sin, whereas Christ is the second man--the Lord from heaven, heavenly. If children had been born prior to the Fall, Adam's sin would not have bore any consequence upon them. Therefore, this would necessarily require multiple Falls in order for Paul to declare that "all have sinned." The essence of Paul's theology is that all of humanity is (and has been) under the consequence of sin because of Adam's fault.

With this in mind, God's pronouncement of pain in child-bearing is understood as an illustration that pain was not a part of God's initial Creation but a consequence of sin. All sorrow and hardship, in fact, are the necessary consequences of evil in the world. But this was not God's original design, and we expect, because of Christ's victory, that all shall be corrected in the consummation at his Coming.

[Mike R. Prevost]

Michael V. Frazier said:

[...] God's pronouncement of pain in child-bearing is understood as an illustration that pain was not a part of God's initial Creation but a consequence of sin. All sorrow and hardship, in fact, are the necessary consequences of evil in the world. But this was not God's original design, and we expect, because of Christ's victory, that all shall be corrected in the consummation at his Coming.

[ You aren't one of those people who believe that there was no death before the fall are you?!  Don't answer that!  It's way off topic. ;) ]

Here's something:

Gen 7:21-23 KJV And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: {22} All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. {23} And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

If the proposed pre-fall children were not cursed with Adam, then you would think they would be alive at the time of the Flood.

[ Or maybe they were born without nostrils.  Then they would have been exempted from the Flood.  ;) ]

Gen 6:9-13 KJV These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. {10} And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. {11} The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. {12} And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. {13} And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.  

Gen 7:1 KJV And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Also, if "man sins because he is a sinner" (as Bro Frazier might assert) then it seems that God would have chosen one of the pre-Fall kids (or their possible descendants) to build the Ark instead of Noah because they would not have sinned.

The idea of children before Cain is too presumptuous for me.  As is ideas about humans before Adam.

[Michael V. Frazier]

Funny. ;-)

I like the Noah illustration. Excellent point.

[Mike R. Prevost]

Another interesting passage that relates to this is Gen 3:20.

Gen 3:19-24 KJV In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. {20} And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. {21} Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. {22} And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: {23} Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. {24} So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Look at the context.  Why is this verse stuck between Adam's curse and God clothing them with skins and kicking them out of the garden?  Doesn't it seem way out of place?  Adam had just been sentenced to death, and as he was being kicked out of the garden, he named his wife "Eve", which means "life" or "living".  Under these circumstances of death, why did he name her "Life"?

Perhaps Adam knew what he had done.  He suddenly realized that his wife also had an important role in his position as the "federal head" of the human race -- it was through her that "all living" would be given "Life".  He had just ensured that "all living", that is, "all mankind", would be born outside the Garden of Eden and out of fellowship with God.  "All living", present AND future, had lost access to the tree of life.  "All living" would have to die the death because of what he had done.  What a horrible realization.

If that interpretation is true, then there would be no children born before the fall.

Just a thought.