Comments - The Revelation of Antichrist - The Glorious Church2024-03-28T14:36:32Zhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2853269%3ABlogPost%3A7667&xn_auth=noI agree. Although I am willin…tag:gloriouschurch.ning.com,2010-11-13:2853269:Comment:77412010-11-13T06:35:51.000ZMichael V. Frazierhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profile/MichaelVFrazier
I agree. Although I am willing to recognize alternative ideas, I also feel that the apostasy implies a falling away from the apostolic faith. In addition to the scriptures you've mentioned, I believe there is another that also can apply.<br />
<br />
In Matthew 24:10, Jesus foretold, "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." The word <i>offended</i> is the Greek word from which we derive our English word <i>scandalize</i>. When used in the passive voice…
I agree. Although I am willing to recognize alternative ideas, I also feel that the apostasy implies a falling away from the apostolic faith. In addition to the scriptures you've mentioned, I believe there is another that also can apply.<br />
<br />
In Matthew 24:10, Jesus foretold, "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." The word <i>offended</i> is the Greek word from which we derive our English word <i>scandalize</i>. When used in the passive voice (like Matthew 24:10), it essentially means "to distrust or desert; to fall away" (see Thayer). Compare the word's usage by Matthew in some other passages: Mt. 13:21, Mt. 18:6, Mt. 26:31, 33.<br />
<br />
It may be that Paul's usage of the definite article before <i>apostasia</i> in 2 Thess 2:3 was in reference back to Jesus' prior teaching. If Paul's mention of a coming…tag:gloriouschurch.ning.com,2010-11-12:2853269:Comment:77392010-11-12T16:48:11.000ZDavid Hustonhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profile/DavidandBarbaraHuston
If Paul's mention of a coming apostasy does in fact refer to a "falling away" and not the Rapture, then wouldn't the only meaning of <i>apsotasia</i> that would make sense biblically be a falling away or rebellion from the Truth; that is, from the apostolic faith? I ask this because I have heard it described by others as a general societal falling away from morality or, as you mentioned, the decline of the church in the Middle Ages. My thought is that the <i>apostasia</i> refers to the same…
If Paul's mention of a coming apostasy does in fact refer to a "falling away" and not the Rapture, then wouldn't the only meaning of <i>apsotasia</i> that would make sense biblically be a falling away or rebellion from the Truth; that is, from the apostolic faith? I ask this because I have heard it described by others as a general societal falling away from morality or, as you mentioned, the decline of the church in the Middle Ages. My thought is that the <i>apostasia</i> refers to the same event Paul mentions eslewhere. For example, in 1 Timothy 4:1 he wrote, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...." And in 2 Timothy 3:1-2 he wrote, "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers..." and so on. Both of these passages describe a revolt by "believers" against what I would call the true faith. It is hard for me to imagine that the world, at any time in history, could have a falling away. What would the world fall away from? It is already the devil's world. But what would be significant is for a large number of true believers to fall away and put themselves into the devil's hands. Frankly, I see this happening in ever-increasing waves right now. The Greek does contain the de…tag:gloriouschurch.ning.com,2010-11-12:2853269:Comment:77382010-11-12T15:02:31.000ZMichael V. Frazierhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profile/MichaelVFrazier
The Greek does contain the definite article: <b>ἡ</b> ἀποστασία. The ἡ is the nominative-singular, feminine declension of the definite article. However, I don't believe this detracts from the traditional understanding that Paul was referring to the apostasy. We must remember that Greek syntax is not equivalent to English syntax. The Greek language requires the use of the definite article in places where English would not. Therefore, Paul's use of it here does not in any way require an…
The Greek does contain the definite article: <b>ἡ</b> ἀποστασία. The ἡ is the nominative-singular, feminine declension of the definite article. However, I don't believe this detracts from the traditional understanding that Paul was referring to the apostasy. We must remember that Greek syntax is not equivalent to English syntax. The Greek language requires the use of the definite article in places where English would not. Therefore, Paul's use of it here does not in any way require an interpretation of "the rapture."<br />
<br />
Secondly, I don't see the Greek text suggesting the apostasy is the <u>necessary stimulus</u> for the man of sin's revelation. It certainly could happen that way, and the text implies the apostasy precedes the revelation, but I don't see the text <u>requiring</u> these events to be back-to-back.<br />
<br />
I personally believe that these events will be relatively close together, but I know that some believe the falling away occurred in the dark ages. If the apostasy is still yet to occur, I believe it will be over a course of time, culminating in the man of sin's revelation. In other words, I do feel the apostasy leads into the revelation; however, I can't say that the text demands that interpretation. Do you know if there is a def…tag:gloriouschurch.ning.com,2010-11-12:2853269:Comment:77372010-11-12T11:41:31.000ZDavid Hustonhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profile/DavidandBarbaraHuston
Do you know if there is a definite article in front of <i>apostasia</i>? Seems as though if it were referring to the Rapture, Paul would have called it THE <i>apostasia</i>, not A <i>apostasia</i>. On another note, does this passage indicate that the falling away is what will reveal the man if sin? In other words, he will be present on earth, perhaps even in a poistion of great power, but will not be recognizable as the man of sin until the falling away begins. I presume the revelation of who…
Do you know if there is a definite article in front of <i>apostasia</i>? Seems as though if it were referring to the Rapture, Paul would have called it THE <i>apostasia</i>, not A <i>apostasia</i>. On another note, does this passage indicate that the falling away is what will reveal the man if sin? In other words, he will be present on earth, perhaps even in a poistion of great power, but will not be recognizable as the man of sin until the falling away begins. I presume the revelation of who he is will be for the true believers, not the world. You're not missing anything.…tag:gloriouschurch.ning.com,2010-11-12:2853269:Comment:77352010-11-12T05:43:01.000ZMichael V. Frazierhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profile/MichaelVFrazier
You're not missing anything. I certainly agree that the traditional reading means exactly what you point out.<br />
<br />
Williams was trying to portray the <i>apostasia</i> as a necessary event for the man of sin to be revealed. His forced translation was "Let no man deceive you by any means: for except there come a falling away first that man of sin shall not be revealed, the son of perdition." By putting the translation in this manner, he can then appeal to the idea that the <i>apostasia</i> is the…
You're not missing anything. I certainly agree that the traditional reading means exactly what you point out.<br />
<br />
Williams was trying to portray the <i>apostasia</i> as a necessary event for the man of sin to be revealed. His forced translation was "Let no man deceive you by any means: for except there come a falling away first that man of sin shall not be revealed, the son of perdition." By putting the translation in this manner, he can then appeal to the idea that the <i>apostasia</i> is the Rapture. However, his translation is forced by twisting the Greek text. Even if we go with the tradit…tag:gloriouschurch.ning.com,2010-11-11:2853269:Comment:77332010-11-11T23:35:58.000ZDavid Hustonhttp://gloriouschurch.ning.com/profile/DavidandBarbaraHuston
Even if we go with the traditional reading with the extra words added (i.e. "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed"), it seems to me that the only possible conclusion is a post-trib rapture. Isn't this saying that the Day of Christ (the coming and gathering) will not come until the falling away has happened and the man of sin has been revealed? Maybe I'm missing something here, but even with the added words, I can't read this any way other…
Even if we go with the traditional reading with the extra words added (i.e. "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed"), it seems to me that the only possible conclusion is a post-trib rapture. Isn't this saying that the Day of Christ (the coming and gathering) will not come until the falling away has happened and the man of sin has been revealed? Maybe I'm missing something here, but even with the added words, I can't read this any way other than the gathering comes <i>after</i> the falling away and man of sin.